I wonder if i was jewish they would let me print about the joys of the hollocaust? Im guessing not...

God this article sounds awful! Didn't pick up a copy yesterday, will make sure to take a gander today..

it is a shame that his only credible point, though one I didn't agree with for various reasons, was spoilt by otherwise unprofessional/unfounded comments...he also dealt with quite a sensitive issue in a very black and white manner. It does raise a whole load of difficult questions to which there are no right or wrong answers, so we should all be v cautious in discussion I reckon.

Just thinking out loud.

Wow, hello LGBT.

I’m Steven Smith the author of the discussed observation and I thought I might take some time to answer the points you’ve raised.

Firstly, the point that the article is a rant and uses a harsh tone.
-The observation section in LS2 is meant to be a place for people’s opinions. As this infers, all the articles in this section will naturally have a bias because they only contain one person’s viewpoint. As for the tone, that’s just how I right. Some of the things I talk/joke about are exaggerated in order to raise debate which, as this forum shows, has happened.

Is the subject is fair?
-I think it’s disgusting to compare the plight of LGBT to Jews and the Holocaust. I know you meant it in Jest, but really. Coming back to that point though - we would never print something that is an extreme view. I can assure mine is not. My argument was thought out and relatively well formed. Yes it will offend some people, but surely that’s expected - people don’t agree about everything. Anyone can submit an observation or write a letter.

Me?
-Interesting. It’s a very immature position to take, attacking the author and not the article. I’m don’t really feel the need to defend my securities but suffice to say I disagree with you. Perhaps it says more about you: presuming I’m the insecure one.

Nic.
-Hhmm, I new you couldn’t let it go! One the paper is not crap! It’s by no means amazing, but I think ‘crap’ is a bit unfair. Two: You’ve never had any sort of editorial control over the newspaper, so ‘getting us to behave’ (ignoring the inference that we’re looking for trouble) places an authority to you, which unfortunately never existed.

Come talk to me, I’m in the Paper office most of the time.

Funny how you ran for Student Paper editor and can't tell the difference between right and write

more to the point what must one do to convince steven smith that one is a lesbian?

Steven Smith wrote:

---

Firstly, the point that the article is a rant and uses a harsh tone.
-The observation section in LS2 is meant to be a place for people’s opinions. As this infers, all the articles in this section will naturally have a bias because they only contain one person’s viewpoint. As for the tone, that’s just how I right. Some of the things I talk/joke about are exaggerated in order to raise debate which, as this forum shows, has happened.

---

Hey steve. I got really upset about your article at first, until it was pointed out to me that it was designed to be an opinion piece at which point I started thinking "it isn't all that bad". it did seem a bit inconsistent though. for instance, you speak of separating LGBT into its constituent groups whilst talking about greater integration, talk about not wanting to be a "plastic gay" then go on to talk about "fitting in". which is it that you want?

Steven Smith wrote:

---

Is the subject is fair?
-I think it’s disgusting to compare the plight of LGBT to Jews and the Holocaust. I know you meant it in Jest, but really. Coming back to that point though - we would never print something that is an extreme view. I can assure mine is not. My argument was thought out and relatively well formed. Yes it will offend some people, but surely that’s expected - people don’t agree about everything. Anyone can submit an observation or write a letter.

---

Disgusting? i am a German BA student and former resident of Germany, so I know my stuff when it comes to the Holocaust. as somebody has already written, "our lot", and by that I mean gay men, were interned by the Nazis along with not only the jews, but also: slavs; roma, kalderash and sinti gypsies; trade unionists; communists; pretty much any politically/culturally different members of the human race. it is hard to remember that the Shoa (the Holocaust) did not just involve jews.

I am confused that you find it distasteful for us to compare our plight - my dad is jewish, and he agrees with me on this one! Every single day, people are being tortured, maimed, beaten to death, committing suicide and being executed around the world simply because they are gay. This is actual documented fact. please remember that you and others who are gay are still not safe in many countries in the world - many countries still carry harsh penalties such as lifetime imprisonment, enforced hard labour and execution for being identified as gay. being british makes those of who are bloody lucky, because we have rights that gay men in other countries can only ever dream of. don't forget that it is also still standard practice in the american church of mormon to send kids identified as homosexual for EST - electro-shock therapy. that's called torture, and is no different to the nazi doctor, josef mengele, and his "experiments".

Also, the paper (not necessarily in its current make-up of staff) has indeed published extremist views before, such as the interview carried out with BNP leader Nick Griffin, in which he compared homosexuals to paedophiles and made highly derogatory remarks about foreign students. I have no doubt that other writers for the paper would do something similar in the name of "edgy journalism".

All in all, I can pretty much sympathise with where you're coming from, even if the way you've expressed it seems like overkill to me! I totally refute the idea that lesbians and bisexuals don't exist however...I know it's hard to think outside the box, but just try...most of the lesbians and bisexuals i know are wonderful people - either that or they're convincing hallucinations.

sasha

Steven:

Whilst I have serious issues with some of the opinions you expressed, I do respect the fact that they are your opinions and that you should have the right to express them. However, like a lot of people in the LGBT, I don't feel that your article should have been published, because, quite simply, it sucks. You say you consider your argument to be well thought out and well formed. However, your article shows a staggering level of ignorance and insensitivity regarding LGBT issues, and despite having read the piece numerous times I'm still at a loss as to what actually is the "argument" that you are trying to express.

As an example: You say that this is 2007 and not 1979, and that you have never been the victim of a hate crime. Although I don't know you, I'm very glad you've never been targeted in this way, as it is something I wouldn't wish on anyone. You don't seem to realise, though, that (yes, even in this day and age!) prejudice and bigotry against LGBT people is everywhere. For instance, it's still less than 18 months since Jody Dobrowski was punched and kicked to death on Clapham Common just because two passers-by didn’t like the idea of having a gay guy walking about near them, which to my mind at least would equate with them not "accepting" his homosexuality. Even on a (thankfully) far lesser scale, many of the members of the LGBT society have been discriminated against and even physically attacked on campus in the last few years, such as the incident at Fruity not so long ago in which two members of the society had bottles thrown at them. If that doesn’t highlight the need for an LGBT campaign on campus then I don’t know what does.

Clearly you didn’t feel the need to do any research on such matters, such as reading through the archives of your paper to find the articles about these incidents and the appalling way in which they were reported (deliberately misquoting people, publishing their names and contact details without permission, etc -- which, whatever you might think of her, Nic managed to put a stop to). Even the most superficial research (such as typing “gay hate crime” into Google, which just took me all of four seconds to accomplish) would have been enough for you to realise this and would hopefully have made you realise that hatred towards LGBT people does still exist. Even if you feel this has nothing to do with you, if you are ever the victim of a hate crime then you might be a little more willing to give credit to the people who fight for LGBT rights today. Your comments on being "weirded out" by trans people, and claiming not to know what a trans person is, also show how little you have bothered to find out about the LGBT group before writing your piece.

I also mentioned that your article came across as very insensitive. Perhaps this was part of your plan to provoke a debate (which, incidentally, you have rather failed to do -- as I think this forum shows, all you have achieved is to piss a lot of people off about what you wrote, bemuse others as to why you couldn't have expressed it more sensitively, and quite probably sent out the message to every homophobe on campus that it's OK to hate LGBT people because they all hate themselves too) but to describe the LGBT society as "a jumble sale of sexual obscurities" or even "sexual deviants" is extremely unhelpful and makes you sound like you've just stepped out of the 1940s or 50s. Considering that you (presumably) haven't bothered to come along to any society meetings or events before forming this opinion of us, to describe us in this way is just not on.

My other major problem with your writing is its inconsistency. You say you have never met a bisexual who was not sliding towards “the dark side” (it’s not entirely clear what you actually mean by this, but from your general opinion of gays I’m assuming that by “dark” you mean “gay”) but then go on to say that no lesbian has ever managed to convince you that she really is a lesbian. Putting these two statements together, you seem to be suggesting that no woman has ever been attracted to another woman -– if this is really what you think then it is quite definitely not the case, and I’m sure that if you really wanted we could arrange some sort of demonstration to that effect.

I agree with Sasha that you should try coming along to the next Curious (which, incidentally, is just intended to be a catchy name rather than a full description of the night’s events, much as Fruity does not involve actual fruit) and find out for yourself what the society is about –- who knows, you might even find a fellow Stargate fan and realise you actually had even MORE than that in common with them!

Dom

Incidentally I also would like to fall in love and get married some day, but if it's escaped your notice then let me remind you that it is still not legal for two men to get married in this country, and if it ever is then it will be yet another thing we have to thank our LGBT rights campaigners for!

-- Edited by RainbowWarrior at 14:21, 2007-03-04

interesting that one week after steven smith claims that the paper will never print an extreme view, the paper gives full platform to outrageous racism in the form of grafitti - on the bl00dy front page. this is no different from printing something similar in the letter section

doesn't matter whether the paper condones it or not it was still printed and the person was given exactly what they wanted- full publicity.

no i think that we generally have quite a good student paper, and topics of discussion should always be raised and talked about - its one of the nice things about living in a free society, u just occasionally u have people who take it a step too far and i dont think you should knock the whole paper just for a few idiots