noticed how everything on the Leeds Scene is male orientated? flyers, nights, saunas, magazines. Altho I am disappointed that the courtyard parties have copped out and advertised an LGBT event with a picture of a man and woman kissing.
Yes! Yes! Yes, I have! And it makes me very, very "pre-menstrual". I went on the courtyard parties' Facebook group recently and complained about this, with a mixed response. Some agreed; some maintained that the female-appearing figure in the poster was in fact transgendered ... because of the jawline. Which doesn't seem to me to be justification for presuming trans status at ALL, regardless of its MASSIVE IRRELEVANCE TO THE ISSUE, because ONLY PEOPLE WHO STUDY THE POSTER AT LENGTH AND DECIDE TO GENDER ALL JAWLINES WILL SEE IT AS ANYTHING BUT HETERONORMATIVE - IF IT IS IN FACT QUEER, IT HARDLY ANNOUNCES ITSELF!
*breathe*
Yes. Yes, I have noticed.
Also, just nipped this over from the welfare threads because I and a committee member agreed it was more appropriate here. For one thing, all the boys will read it too :o)
I presume the reason why not much is female oriented is a simple case of supply and demand? Or the bars not feeling a need to advertise to women in the queer community- any thoughts on why? ...A huge jump in culture would be needed for women's saunas to start up...Anyway I've just posted on that group.
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"I am but too conscious of the fact that we are born in an age when only the dull are treated seriously, and I live in terror of not being misunderstood."
Oscar Wilde
I presume the reason why not much is female oriented is a simple case of supply and demand?
That's exactly the kind of thinking that makes me angry, actually, and sounds along the lines of victim blame to me. Of course there is ample demand - you can see this from the amount of queer women in our society alone. If fewer women go out on the scene than men, perhaps this is actually because they feel alienated and under-represented, rather than the causal connection being the other way around. I would certainly say so - after all, the LGBT movement is far from being sexism-free.
Leeds is also home to striking examples of prompts for this kind of segregation. Take the first Leeds Pride event, for instance, whose afterparty was named 'Meat on the Street'. Overlooking for a moment the blatant omission of femininity here, the reference is also particularly insensitive to those women (and men) who have suffered sexual abuse or generally feel sexually objectified by people around them. Many women appeal to the gay community for a safe space away from this sort of mistreatment - imagine the feeling of betrayal when you realise you can't even fully escape that **** where you feel most at home. Aside from that, it is a tagline designed to alienate - and this is the way many queer women felt about it at the time. This is just one example of many.
One reason why gay bars in Leeds may not "feel a need" to advertise to women in the queer community is Terry George, owner of half the them and notorious for being a sex pest. Not that this is at all pleasant for the men involved either, but the knock-off effect on women is not to be ignored.
Its simply the capitalist way of thinking Liz...I was not intending to brush aside the concerns in your post just speculating what the reasons for the problem might be. Anyway organisation for Leeds pride starts now and I want us to be involved- so now is the time to do something, get back to the committee with ideas so we can push what we want to do.
-- Edited by Alas at 19:26, 2008-04-07
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"I am but too conscious of the fact that we are born in an age when only the dull are treated seriously, and I live in terror of not being misunderstood."
Oscar Wilde
Yes but Liz was making the point that the reason for the non-female orientation of the scene is infact not because of supply and demand, but instead as a result of an ongoing problem with the people who own the clubs.
Surely 'simple' capitalist thinking would overlook prejudice, and favouritism, in favour of profit, which obviously isn't the case here, as was just pointed out.
I'm not sure if I've noticed big problems to women in the gay scene... maybe because of the large number of girls who are in the society, i just sort of view the night as a venture in which everyone takes part and pay little attention to the marketing behind it... I can't actually conjur many memories of gay scene ad campaigns , but perhaps i do notice the dominance of male patrons. My amateur theorising would have it that perhaps due to recent sexism in wider society, men have had more dollar in their back pocket. Thereby having become more "important", in the past, to club owners. Unlike hetero clubs, however... they didn't need to be super favorable to the lasses in order to create bait for the money-men. I think that sort of dynamic has lingered... but with the gender pay gap it still has some basis.
In a hypothetical queerland where everyone is 100% homo and gender is considered binary (both false)... theres pretty much no interaction in terms of coupling between male & female... which is a major part of the clubbing thing... so unfortunately I'd imagine many owners wouldn't be that enthusiastic to changing the male dominance simply because they don't care about women. For one thing far too many people think they're living in that hypothetical world, but further there's a lack of compassion... and a lack of effort and enthusiasm to change... things change. Much of how the gay scene is, must be a product of sexism and homophobia... It's rather chicken and egg, but whether society changes or not I do think the gay-subculture has an equal responsibility as everyone else to change and needn't wait for cues.
I don't think the sensibilities are capitalist ones (even if i ain't down with capitalism either), I'm sure club owners could make MORE money if they got more women to their clubs! And made them feel more comfortable.
Male homosexuality in general has got far more coverage in terms of both disgust and acceptance, it seems to matter because according to the people making that decision "men matter". And even lesbianism is passed off as nothing more then a MALE fantasy, one thing that really is not male territory... I think female homosexuality is a relatively new thing in terms of being recognised as a thing of it's own just like anything else actually belonging to women.
I recognise sexism in the gay scene, but I can't help but think it's everywhere else too... I think it's more a case of the gay scene existing in a sexist society... I do think a lot of these problems root from heterosexual issues of normative male ideas of "dominance" and "strength", having a knock-on effect in the homosphere. That's not to say that it'd not be possible to make changes.
However, speaking as a person more towards the bent/female ends of the non-existent binaries, it is particularly upsetting that, even in an environment in which you feel SO much safer and more respected, the destructive heteronormative bull**** still gets through anyway. I think it's fair to say that most queer people consider issues of gender and oppression etc far more than many others - because we have to, to form identities, to figure out why we feel as alienated as we do in more mainstream culture - so part of me thinks this means we have, if anything, MORE of a duty to try to iron these things out in our own community, because these are problems we are far more familiar with than, say, your average straightwhitemiddleclassmale. I know we still have privileged groups among us who feel we don't need to think about anything ever, but that, in my opinion, is never justified, least of all in a minority community.
i think that gender phobia is a disgusting thing but it goes both ways iv been to vanilla in manchester and was refused entry because they didnt want men in their pub so my friends decided we would all go somewhere else at which point they let us in i was then verbally abused by a girl who said fvcking qveers shouldnt be in here. I decided to leave my friends came with me and we were alter refused entry to a gay pub on the ground that they were women i was again outraged i mean we are all part of this proud banner LGBT why are we fighting each other when there is oppression of LGBT people all over the world.
That's a bit **** chris, my condolences on the loss of your evening.
In the case of the female bar I can bet you if you complained they'd site the reason for their rule as being a response to fellas jumping in there to get an eyefull of girls getting off.
I'm not sure about "duty", i do things for my own good, or anyone else's because i want to. But, spiderliz, you are rather right about the increased consciousness of gender issues for anyone who finds that they differ from the norms that are set out. With that upped awareness, I think people are more capable of addressing those issues and more often compelled to make change. I suppose it falls along the lines of "with great power, comes great responsibility". I can see that line of thought, but I think it's more about wanting change for reasons of compassion for the people who it hurts.
Duty doesn't require compassion, and it's sort of a tool to let people do good without admitting internal personal dedication under a mask of external responsibility. It's like a way to nurse people's apathy, while making them acceptable. I'd rather make them care. Which is a real reason for people to make change.
In your context "duty" is right on the ball and you're absolutely right about what you say, because it's inline with "caring", but in many cases it is not, managers of clubs may say that their real duty is to the owners.
Forgive me if I'm nit-picking.
[open rant] I do get increasingly pissed off that there's still queer/straight. In our talk about gays in the media, i was thinking about the shows which I'd called inclusive and realised that their queer characters are often on one side of the fence or the other. There is so little room for bisexuality (thank god for shameless). It's always seen as a mistake. They can cross over to the other territory but in the continuity of a series they always come back to their "starting position". Binaries binaries everywhere grrrr. It's never unimportant whether a character is with their own gender, their opposite or (if ever) another gender. Whereas in real life there isn't that division between people. People are far more complicated... I STILL don't know who I really fancy... only that sometimes I'm turned on, and that it'll never be any neater than that. I yearn for the day when i'm not constantly whipped by the backlash of everyone who feels fvcked up because they don't fit the boxes that have been created for them and actually know as much about their sexuality as i do YARGH [close rant]
Oooh, I've not been on the forum for ages, happy to see that there's lots of ranting!
I completely agree with Jake's point - queer scenes don't happen in a vaccuum - like it or loathe it (and most of us, I'm sure, loathe it), we exist as part of society as a whole, so we aren't immune to all of the powers and pressures of the patriarchy. That women are made invisible within the gay scene is an extension of what women face in society at large.
The point about the pay gap absolutely stands, though queer women certainly have more disposable income than ever before. As such, it seems surprising that there aren't more companies, especially bars/clubs, trying to capitalise on this new 'pink pound'. I reckon this is, at least in part, to do with the less cruisy culture among queer women, and the preference for more DIY scenes. Does anyone have any other explanations?
I read in a news article (that I've since lost) about how "The pink pound" isn't as big as it is made to look - statistically it's made out that people who say they're queer in questionnaires are more likely to get a degree and earn more... however, people are also more likely to Come Out at uni, there could be just as many people who don't tick the queer box, not because they ain't, but because they're still living in small communities and in close proximity to family and far less likely to have had the freedom to explore sexuality or escape the difficulties that huge proportions of folks suffer at home.
I think DIY nights are actually far prefereable for anyone! SOO much better. However, they're going to happen in a niche. I think they happen because women want to go out and be respected and if you can't get it done properly "Do it yourself" (as my mum says). I think it's the lack of attention that leads to the diy nights, rather than the other way round.
See now I'm going to put the cat among the pidgins. I was reading the Leeds union paper the other day sand saw an article about a girls only lesbian night starting up in Leeds. Something by the name of strap it on. But it raised an interesting point in my mind. Aren't the LGBT supposed to be big in to inclusion. By definition a women only event is not inclusive. You see the problem comes when you try to draw the line. Who will be let in or not. After all my law they have to let legally reassigned MtFs in. However MtFs are not compelled by law to have surgical procedures and even those that do often look cosmetically like their birth sex from the neck up and so out side of checking paper work it could be impossible to distinguish them from transvestites. Also for MtFs who are in the 2 year transition they won't even have items like a female drivers license (or am i mistaken?) and so it is physically impossible for door men to distinguish them from transvestites. Then what about the gender queer? Those who identify as bi gendered or non gendered or even 3rd gendered. Isn't the basic premise of LGBT that people are free to define their gender and sexuality for them selves out side of the box of traditional roles and expectations? In which case is it appropriate for ... i think it was your events secretary ... to be endorsing a night that demands people fall in to the male or female camp (and hence are on the inside or out side) in the student paper?
Eh, there's nothing wrong with single-gender places if they let in everyone who identifies that way (whether full-time or part-time). I mean, I'm almost certain saunas like Basement are men-only, I don't see the problem with female-only clubs and events either. As long as that's not the ONLY thing available, what's the big deal?
Oh, and this '2 year pre-transition' thing is often misunderstood - it's 2 years until you can get any surgery, but NOT 2 years until you can start hormones, change your name etcetera. You can change your name any damn time you like, and start hormones from six months in the NHS service (which is not, necessarily, six months living 'in role', as they have to diagnose you before you start the Real Life Test). Admittedly, you can only change your legal sex after you can prove you've been living in your new gender role for two years to the government (with medical records, evidence of name change, yadda yadda), but even so. I would like to think that any doorman at a queer night would be told to be trans-friendly. I'm also quite willing to believe they wouldn't automatically chuck men out at Strap It On unless they're obviously going to cause trouble - they're just relying on the fact the name 'lesbian night' is likely to deter most chaps.
So essentially you're saying its acceptable to leave this sort of (rule bending) judgement up up to the whims of individual door men? Thing is in my experience door men are naturally shallow creatures used to making judgements on the most superficial basis. I rather suspect if there was any official rule bending policy the way it would end up working is 'guys' who were accompanied by girls would be allowed in and 6 foot heavy set 'guys' in dresses who walk up to the door alone are likely to be sent packing.
You see the issue with only letting people in who identify is some door man has to determine weather that identification is genuine. What do you bet that the night isn't identified as trans friendly in its literature? I mean I've not seen it but I'd be surprised if the posters and flyers didn't say something like girls only. The article certainly gave that impression. And what are you betting any MtFs, gender queer people or so on getting turned away weren't simply told it was because it was a girls only night.
Also with regards to other options surly the whole point of a lesbian night is everything is set up for girls which it isn't in all the other options. After all isn't strap it on Leeds only lesbian night?
As long as any place has a girls only policy, even with a modicum of rule bending, the only guarantee MtFs will ever have of getting in is an ID card of some form listing them as female.
Just out of curiosity did any one here actually go? You would know better than us what face the door men were presenting.
Didn't go. The only reason it's listed as a lesbian only night is because:
1) Makes it clear that its not for gay men - the rest of the scene is all about them, just look at the 3-sum advertising.
2) Makes it clear that the place is going to be full of lesbian & bi women - not fag hags looking to find a new gay best friend, therefore the place doesnt get over-ran by prissy bitches who look at u like u've shat on their grandma when they realise ur a lesbian... you know the typical type of orange faced jaffa slapper rahhhhs you find in mission & fibre dahhling. But they "aren't homphobic" as they "love gay men" apparently, personally I'd love 2 slap every1 of these lasses silly.
3) If its known that theres not going to be any straight women & its just 'lesbians' (think about it, if someone sees 2 lasses kissing they automatically think lesbians, not bisexuals) str8 blokes know that there's no chance they'll get a look in or will be able 2 pull & therefore stay away. Whereas when the average str8 bloke hears or think about the word bisexual he thinks "**** yeah am in, they like boys & i'll get a 3-some from it!".
Hence it being coined a lesbian night... basic translation being if ur a woman who likes women ur in.
MtF trans folk, should be no problems on the doors & stuff of LGBT nights, if there is u just ask for the manager & tell them that they are in contravention of the gender recognition act and unless the complaint is dealt with you'll take it further... usually just mentioning that they are contravening the act makes them change their tone.
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Nic // LGBT Society Events Officer 05/06 // LGBT Assembly Chair 05/06 - NUS LGBT Society of the year 2006(winners) //
LUU honarary life member - Awarded 2006 // LGBT Assembly Mentor 2006 -Onwards.
Contact me at nicturner_85@hotmail.com
Ok but we've already established that there are a whole load of non legal MtFs (with out documentation) or others who don't fit the male / female divide, but aren't MtF, who might want in. Making legal threats isn't really any use for these people is it. And I've no objection to it being called a lesbian night ... It's just it was also called, in the paper, a girls only night, and that usually means women and legal / post op MtFs. ... but maybe the paper got it wrong?
Also, not to be catty, but shouldn't the LGBT soc check on the trans inclusion policy before endorsing something in the student paper?
You'd be suprised at the mention of it & there have been past issues about this sort of stuff mentioned to venues in their past who have changed their tune pretty damn sharpish when the act has been mentioned. They've not requested to see all the legal forms & paperwork.
Theres also been lots of Transpeople who've come on events with us, both MtF & FtM (both legal & non-legal) over the past 4/5years I've been here, with no hassle or problems as the LGBT actually have a good link & working relationship with the venues they use. If it's known that the venue is going to be discriminatory towards any of its members that venue isn't used.
Therefore when an event is held at a venue which the LGBT have a good working relationship & links with, it's a given that it's members aren't going to be discriminated against by staff/the venue. All of the venues have been used before without issue or have resolved previous issues with the venue, therefore the society have good grounds for endorsing an event there.
They wouldn't be so irresponsible and/or reckless to hold (nevermind actively promote) an event which would open it's members up to discrimination. Suggesting that they would is actually quite catty and an insult to how well the committee are running the society.
__________________
Nic // LGBT Society Events Officer 05/06 // LGBT Assembly Chair 05/06 - NUS LGBT Society of the year 2006(winners) //
LUU honarary life member - Awarded 2006 // LGBT Assembly Mentor 2006 -Onwards.
Contact me at nicturner_85@hotmail.com
