This is a pretty good example. Plus you get a bit of Richard Dawkins thrown in on the side. Nice guy, though he's a little too pro-religion for my tastes!

God Delusion

I love the bit where he's getting the crowd to repeat over and over why they are there. "Obedience! Obedience! Obedience!" It's scary that someone could diminish themselves like that. At least I think that's so.

-- Edited by RainbowWarrior at 00:12, 2008-05-08

I don't think the bible ACTUALLY says "kill the gays".

Though it does say a lot of stuff; there are contradictions, especially if you take it as an entire piece... a lot of the new testament is response to the old and discounts it consciously, rather than being hypocritical... but I know there are other bits that genuinely contradict.

I do think this story shows how hypocrisy is not proof that someone is wrong, (partially why the peter tatchell "outing hypocrits" thing is counter productive). Just because someone says one thing and does another, the ideals they preach aren't questioned, only their quality of person. Hence why the church he founded have got rid of him, and not his ideal.

In a (literally) sadistic way there is pleasure to be drawn from someone who has preached a lot of injustice to queers suffering in this way. But I'd feel far more pleasure if his ideals were thrown into question by the people who believed him for his words.

x x x

If I recall, it says that it says that you should not 'lie with man as with woman'....which, of course, I don't....heh.

The word 'abomination' is thrown around a lot which if you're doing it right it should be....

miserablizm wrote:

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Of course the Bible doesn't actually say 'kill the gays' - it doesn't actually say most of the ideas I summarised in those words. Sadly I am not in the loop enough to quote directly anymore - but after being brought up a Christian, attending a church school, and experiencing ****loads of "religiously-motivated" homophobia, yes, Jacob, the Bible does tell the world that gay is a sin and those who sin in this way shall suffer.

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Sorry if I let you feel I was having a pop... you are right, it does say "kill the gays" but not like that, and on it's own that's out of context. Anyhow that wasn'y the point of my post. Just a silly poi.

While the bible looks contradictory that could be because it progresses, it consciously discards what it said before and explains why (understandable when being written by a mahillion people living a gazillion years apart).

I think apart from the abomination bit (a word used in the same book of the bible to "say no to fish" and not to eat pork or rabbit meat), there's not much else which says it clearly, it might be implied but in most places something else is the point, ie in the sin sodom, which is not homosexuality.

That one mentioned in the 3rd book is apparently also only supposed to apply descendants of Israel anyway, and refers to the law of the land; it proposes the death penalty for whoever "lieth with a man as one would with a lady" (kill the gays)- which it also proposes for gathering sticks on the sabbath. It's almost a historical record more than it is the word of God.

Anyhow, a lot of the the new testament (especially the jesus bit) is about discarding these old laws that had become anachronistic, ie some parable about saving your sheep on a sunday, implying that sabbath shouldn't be too holy to do good. The general gist is that the old stuff is shabby and misinterpreted and therefore needs redefining. The people preaching from it do not NEED to be homophobic.

However, a lot of the church is homophobic. And they very carefully use the citations of homosexuality to back up this bias.

I'm still struck by the basis of it all; "story of" (Adam + Eve) = Heteronormativity = Female Original Sin = Sexism = Misogyny = Hatred of Female attributes = hatred of attraction to men = homophobia.

What a yucky story; yeaukhe... though it has some groovy symbolism.

I'm trailing off - back to revision.

My partner was brought up as Polish Catholic Orthodox (and they seem to think the Pope isn't quite Catholic enough) and he was telling me that confirmation seems to be the time when most people lose their faith. I suppose that's a confirmation of sorts...

hey ho...

yeah never believe anything your parents tell you exists/is real, they lied about santa, the tooth fairy & the easter bunny... nuff said.

I think it gives parents a chance to indulge in imagination... adults aren't alowed to have fairy tales, there isn't much space for it - which is a major shame. So I think that's one thing my parents got out of it, but also it made me happy at the time, they liked seeing me "wowing" at a letter written to me by santa, and the "fairy dust" sprinkled on wafer-thin paper and the miniscule handwriting of a fairy. It was such a beautiful feeling. And i think that's something spirituality also gives people. I don't think it was anything but good intentions from my parents.

I once had a loose tooth come out and I decided to prove my own doubt to be wrong. I'd always tell my parents about tooth-loss and put it under my pillow and the tooth fairies would take it away and swap it for a coin, but this one time I put it there without telling them. It was there in the morning and i was mortified, and I realised that just because I believed something so hard that i "knew" it was true it didn't necessarily mean it was - hence my relinquary of also absolute belief in god and santa.

But I think what ruined it all was that my parents went around creating physical evidence for my imagination... I think spirituality should be seen a lot more like imagination - if you believe something then it IS true, but it's a symbolic expression of the rest of emotions like dreams. If Father Christmas was only talked about as a symbol of universally love, charity and compassion. And christmas a celebration of these things. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying he's real, because in that context he is. Just like God is in that context. But just like I felt that falsely trying to consolidate my imagination ruined things for me, I think that religious books shouldn't be slammed down at the alter like absolute physical proof of straight-jacket restrictions in essentially individual spirituality.

Fantasies are alowed to change and be discarded and adapted, as you add more characters and as something disposable that only kids do... but changing a religious belief is nearly always hugely taboo and I think this causes big problems when people's morals are questioned.

*Jacob realises this will not help him in his fluid mechanics exam*

-- Edited by CrowJake at 02:15, 2008-05-19

I'm not defending the misallocation of gratitude for parents and I'm not capping anyone. I'm suggesting that motives for parents are to have some fun in their imaginations because they're already capped by our social boundaries, that should be acknowledged, and also many of these fantasies also give children a whole lot of pleasure, and (my) parents enjoy contributing.

I definitely had a lot of random shizzle going on in my head for which there was no prompt; maybe that's just how the mind copes with certain concepts. The idea that i had been visited by fairies really wasn't that different to what I came up with by myself. I don't think some of the stuff I believed would go down to well in my dad's office either - or if he pretended to fly round it.

The real world is great yes yes, but I have had some equally excellent moments that have been complete fiction. You mentioned books, i think some of this is like writing a book in your head and reading it at the same time which i can't see there being much wrong with.

I don't think it's ok to go use that against children, but i was trying to answer "WHY do parents feel it's necessary to tell these lies to their children?" with something other than just "torture!".

I do think the actual results can be as sinister as you say.

I don't see why kids can't handle hearing about sex and have to deal with loads and loads of misleading rubbish about "where babies come from" only to have to do **** loads of catching up with stuff that isn't mentioned until your likely to be doing it already... i think parents take far too much pleasure in what they can get away with telling their kids... i never found lies helpful, only very very annoying "if the wind changes your face will stay like that" - "fvck off- i'll do what i want with my face; it's not hurting anyone is it?".

I think dishonesty is something no-one should have to get used to.

-- Edited by CrowJake at 04:03, 2008-05-19