When I heard I was on he train coming back to Leeds. I heard from a bunch of London white-collar types who ranted and sighed into their mobile phones. I looked out the window, feeling sick. I couldn't imagine the kind of twisted minds that could lend themselves to the murder of innocent people, certainly not a truly Islamic mind, since the word Islam means peace amd submission in Arabic. Theologically, murder in the name of islam is a contradiction in terms. These people, if we can dignify them using such a gracious word, pervert the goodness of God and turn in to all too human designs. At least the people responsible payed the price for the horrors they have committed, of course this is no consolation for the famillies and friends of the victims. Let us hope that something good comes out of this tragedy, that people will continue to find the strength within themselves and in their communities to tackle hatred, alienation, fear and ignorance that lie at the root of terror. Only then can we bring an end to this senseless violence. At such times these words always offer me some inspiration,

Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O, Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

A Prayer for Peace- St Francis of Assisi

It's a valid point course, (we Brits do tend to romantise about our suffering, with our Dunkirk Spirit and the Blitz) but I don't think that changes the fact that alot of people are hyrting right now and if we blow it out of a wider context, does it matter? If this whole "Britons pulling together at a time of crisis" helps people get through a very traumatic time, who cares. All acts of terrorism are tragedies and sometimes it's good to look at the big picture, the Middle East, Iraq, Afaganastan, Isreal and say looking at all that suffering, we need to do something! At other times I think it's right to look at the misery on our own doorstep, narrowing our focus to level of national grief. Not trying to pick a fight with you anon xx

As to your second point about justice I agree and I think that Western imperialism, racial and social alienation lie at the root of the present growth of terrorism. I am equally not condoning what was done, but I do think it is in our interest to understand and try wherever possible to tackle hatred especially among young Muslims and be less acomadating to those clerics who show little respect to the democratic values of this country by inciting acts of violence. The defeat of hatred won't be achieved by the government tapping phone-lines, monitoring our computer use or any other piece of toltalitarian Communist idiocy, but by the Muslim community taking a self-empowering position. It can only be via the Muslim community itself, through an affirmation of tolerance and non-violance that they themselves can help reduce the terrorist threat. Repression and the ushering of the BIG BROTHER SOCIETY will simply breed more sucide bombers. We must try to tackle the emotions and views which led to the London Bombing at the root. As a wise man once said, "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule".

-- Edited by JesusBitch at 23:03, 2005-07-16

Agree with you totally about the terror laws Nick and of course Iraq made us number 2 on the list after the U.S. As I've already hatred must be dealt with within the Muslim community itself. But I'm glad that the Muslim council of Britain are promising to take a positive role about dealing with Islamic fundamentalism within Muslim communities, while at the same time the police are on the look-out for any backlash against the Muslim community from the extreme right and the ignorant, (same thing really). If the government and police work with the Muslim community rather than imposing draconian sentiment from outside we'll make more progress in dealing with terrorism.

Its all swings n roundabouts tho...

plus fightin against terrorists aint gonna work cos u can arrest them etc but they r still gonna do it, they hold strong enough beliefs and don't mind dying for what they believe in and how many people they take with them, jus detaining them isn't going to stop them & u cant really make sum1 who'll quite happily blow themselves up be fearful of punishment. Best thing to do with them, even tho its a total abuse of human rights is to simply put a bullet in their head... they wanna die n b seen as a martyr, keep em alive n they r gonna keep tryin 2 kill themselves n take others with them, y not jus wipe them out, problem solved...

NickyDyke85 wrote:

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To be honest its London, the place that created smog, is gonna cause taxpayers to waste shed loads of money building crap for the olympics, nevermind already blowing peoples hard earned money on sum stupid flaming dome & spawnin loadsa anti-social arrogant ignorant suit wearing tossers who whinge about everything & display sociopathic tendancies 24/7, ohforgot 2 mention, its where Tony Blair n the other pile of useless **** that the taxpayers blow loads on (the royal bastard family) live, i can c y they'd want 2 blow it up...

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I think that you've pretty much wrapped up how I feel about the whole incident there Nic, (except that some may argue that I'm sometimes an arrogant & ignorant suit wearing tosser who whinges about everything. But, I DO have a nice coat).

Ultimately, there are two conflicting ideaolgies that are seeking to attack ecah other. Religion, and democracy. Both, when used appropriately, are ideoligies that I myself submit to. But, when religion breeds ignorant and hideous concepts abound in the more orthodox and extreme versions of Islam and Christianity, and democracy breeds the likes of Dubya and Western military build up, created in the name of peace, it's impossible to avoid confrontation.

I don't doubt the hatred that must swell in the minds of young muslims, particularly those who have sought asylum in the West, when they see images of the attacks on Mosul, Fallujah etc. My blood was boiling, and I have no intimate or spiritual links to these places. What saddens me most however, are two things. Firstly, is the way in which certain commentators, both muslim clerics & certain politicians, seek to justify suicide bombings. Secondly, every time I flick on the news and listen to Dubya or Blair vowing to fight the 'evil men and women who threaten our societys and way of life'. War is clearly the only answer in their eyes, meet violence with violence. (anyone else ever considered the unpleasant similarities between the words infidel and heathen?).

So what's the answer? If I knew, I'd be a damn sight richer. All I know, is that there are TWO conflicting ideoligies that are being corrupted, and both are slugging it out to the end. It's a war of attrition, who's got the more footsoldiers? In the meantime, it's everyone else who's gonna get caught up in the middle.
What I would say however, is this. The more that the liberal communities seek to find some sort of justification for the London bombings, the more support that the likes of UKIP and the BNP are ultimately going to gain. Violence is unnacceptable anywhere, and we should mourn the dead in London, as much as the dead in Iraq, Darfur or anywhere else. But, because it happens in the MIddle East at a depressingly increasing & ineveitable rate, we can never justify it here or elsewhere.
I hope I haven't offended anyone, and long may this debate continue,
Steven. xxx

I don't think shooting anybody will achieve anything. Especially if these people are willing to kill themselves anyway.

NickyDyke85 wrote:

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As for the Bradford riots, they wernt started by an arrest of an ethnic person, they wer started in retaliation to the police failing to stop a racist group parading through an ethnic area & it was in 2001 :o) had 2 study it at college n write a report on it.
-- Edited by NickyDyke85 at 16:34, 2005-08-03

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Was 2001 indeed! I made a typo. And was actually precipitated by several things, including unlawful arrests and an anti-Nazi league demonstration in the Manningham area. I wrote an essay on it. (Albeit one I got a rather ****e mark for!) :o)

Basically, my point was that the 2001 race riots show that if you slight one part of the community, there can be a very dramatic knock-on effect.

Also, no matter how many terrorists we kill, there's still the leaders of terror groups and the like at large, sending out more impressionable men and women to be martyrs in the name of 'religion'. Even if we do shoot to kill anyone suspected or convicted of planning or carrying out a terror attack, it's not going to stop the never-ending flow of would-be terrorists.

But, because it happens in the MIddle East at a depressingly increasing & ineveitable rate, we can never justify it here or elsewhere.

I agree completely with you there, Steven.

Oh, and I don't believe in institutionalised murder. Unless in the case of a war of self-defence, I don't think a state or any of its individuals can decide on other people's lives.

Do you think we've got the power to decide who's got the right to live and who doesn't?

The USA is the only country in the world to have been accused of terrorism as a whole. Does this mean all Americans should be dead? I don't think so.

I'm just SOOOO against the death penalty.

-- Edited by AlbyFC at 11:16, 2005-08-05

I think the whole thing is a very complex issue as Steven has elequently highlighted. I think however, that by taking a too distanced sociological angle of the situation can sometimes distort our vision. Understanding the context of world events, understanding the interplay between ideologies and so on, as Steven rightly says are central to our understanding. I think however, that this debate needs to be channeled towards concrete action otherwise it will not achieve anything. your right Nick and that terrorisn is an ongoing problem, but it can be decreased.

The fact is the government needs
1. to focus on working with Muslims, (especially Moque leaders)- to root out extremism
2. Look at education to combat extremism (Alberto).
3. Merely add the law of inciting and organising Terrorism to the present Anti-Terror Laws (2000) already in place.
4. Leave the Human Rights Act alone- since there is enough provision in the Act for the protection of British citizens.
5. Use present deportation laws (supported by the EU) to deter/deal with terrorists.

Combined with our sexurity services, this seems to me the best way to deal with Terrorism. I agree with you Nick that such issues as stop-searches on ethnic minofities are very worrying and I hope that the government will shy away from such stupid tactics. It will fail to deal with terrorists, especially the British Richard Reed shoe-bomber variety! Are we doing an Enoch Powell impression here and saying if your Asian with a beard and a strange ascent your a terrorist! They can't be serious! This is there solution to terrorism in a multi-cultural Britian?

JesusBitch wrote:

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2. Look at education to combat extremism (Alberto).

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oh dear, is he a threat to national security now? if they don't let you back in the country, al, can i use your room as a walk-in wardrobe?

oi!

I thought this was a thread to express sadness and regret about the London bombings in?