THANKS DAVE, I think i'll probably need it.

p.s, if anyone knows anyone who's not in the society but who u think night be interested please let me know

I couldn't agree with this sentiment more: it sounds like a fantastic idea to me. All the best of luck with it and if there's anything I can do to help, don't hesitate to contact me.

Hey Patrick,

Its true that so far all 've got from their forum is alot of very hateful views disguised in the form of Biblical condemnations. I think they are a little warped out by me, which i think is a real shame. But in the best Gay Lib spirit I'm going to keep trying to foster a some positive dialougue. Its very disheartening. If all else fails I mite have to suggest creating a Queer Church, lol Its really bad that they reacted to u like that!

Ben x

-- Edited by JesusBitch at 15:35, 2005-10-20

So sorry to hear that, Jesus Bitch.

Breaking in is hard, isn't it, and changing people's attitudes is even harder, I think. It's funny how they don't want to have anything to do with us because we're condemned by the sin of homosexuality, when they're sinners as well, in one way or another. Where is Christ's dictum of loving each other as much as he loved us. Tossers!

My mum's take on the matter is... if a group such as the Church is against you, and you're going against the Bible (supposedly), why do you want to be in it? And my answer is... because if someone doesn't stand up and demand the reform of the Church, who will make it evolve?

Ah well.... That said, I'm Roman Catholic in upbringing but total agnostic in conviction. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in spirituality or that I fail to see the importance of religions.

Hey Jesus Bitch,

I think it is very brave and enterprising of you to think about making links with religious societies.

Unfortunately as has been observed in more than one of the replies, many conventional religious people have a strong resistance to the notion of homosexuality, or trans for that matter.

I prefer to think in terms of spirituality rather than religion. Spirituality is about expressing the spirit that is within us. Our sexualities and genders are divine gifts of individuality that are integral to our spirituality.

Conventional religions may teach us much about conventional things, this is the function of Confucianism, respect for society and all that.

But there has to be room for individuality in all of this otherwise it is no more than an authoritarian tyranny.

Some schools within Hinduism actually celebrate sexuality, hence the Karma Sutra. One of the things I like about Hinduism is that they have a saying that everyone is a Hindu because Hinduism encompasses all views of reality.

Also it allows the individual to worship the divine being in whatever way they feel is best for them. This is not a license for amoral behaviour because there is always Karma. We all have to take responsibility for our actions and the consequences that will eventually come back to us, so the moralising interference of those who would look over our shoulders and judge our souls in absolute terms as say the RC does us is irrelevant.

But I digress somewhat.

The way I look at it is that we must all invent our own religious view of the world (or not). If it is based on love and truth then it will go forward, if not it won't.

Sadly many 'religious' people are trapped in rigid unthinking attitudes which are based on fears and tabus from tribes in the distant past. Even the genuine teachings of spiritual worth have become perverted by the power brokers who have turned them to their own ends. The way that some Churches and political leaders have turned the teachings of Jesus to justify war torture and hate when they originally advocated forgiveness kindness and love is a wonder of propagandistic rewriting.

I look to a world in which everyone can feel their own personal contact with the Divine Spirit within and not be held in thrall through fear which has been instilled by parasites whose only purpose is to enslave you to their will.

For some of us this means leaving behind the security of organised religion and celebrating those aspects of life which would otherwise be denied despite their value. I guess straight people or those wishing to deny their sexual diversity may still find solace in narrow conformity, but to what extent is this because they are like children who fear the big world outside?

Perhaps what is needed is some movment or society which celebrates sexuality and gender expression within a spiritual context. We need to establish our own centre of gravity. Assert that there are people of faith who will not be enslaved by the dogmas of established religions but nonetheless have a legitimate spiritual attitude which intregrally includes sexuality.

Regrettably it seems possible to me that the mainstream churches (and mosques and temples) will never (or at least not in our present timeframe) be able to accommodate our needs. If they cannot do this for the mass of people then they will eventually recede to become no more than sects.

I think that the rise of fundamentalism in all religions today (even Hindu) is a lot to do with fear of change, exposure to belief systems which are new and require adaptation and a fear of letting go of the established certainties. The rejection of evolution is a marvellous example since it is a metaphor of itself. The people who reject it are refusing to acknowledge that reality is continually changing, and so they become stuck, very stuck indeed!

These sort of beliefs are mini-psychoses, denials of reality. It is very hard to reason with someone who is in denial of reality because you cannot even agree on basic premises from which to start your debate.

I don't know what the answer is as many of these people can be so entrenched they are not prepared to countenance anything other than dogma.

So we have to get on with developing and promoting our own spiritual view.

Hey have you come across the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence? Not my own personal cup of tea but a good laugh and an antidote for too much seriousness without doubt LOL!


Cheers,

Claire

Hey Claire,
Thanks for the support, I hope to set up this group very soon. But I'm unsure about how to proceed. I had a chat with a member of the C.U. He seemed to suggest that the more conservative factions would like up something chronic if I suggested it and none of the other societies I contacted have yet contacted me. To tell you the truth I feel a bit rejected about it at the moment because I don't seem to be getting very far. I hope i can offer some more positive news in the near future,

Best wishes,

Ben xxx`

Hey People,

I just thought I'd post an example of the kind of reaction that I've got members of the CU on their forum

CU member writes

My argument is that there is no scale of immorality. There is nothing in the bible that says paedophiles or rapist or murderers are some how on some higher or irredeemable level of immorality compared to fornicators, adulterers and thieves.

Quote BW:
How can love which is based on equality, care and mutual affection cause harm, whether heterosexual or homosexual? In what way is consenting homosexuality harmful, any more than heterosexuality?

Well in my view fornication is also harmful. The bible teaches us man and woman were supposed to become one flesh (Genesis 2:24) not man and man. Since sex is a spiritual act its miss use has consequences on the spirits of all parties concerned. Just like plugging in the connector of a machine in to a port it will not properly fit damages is done to both parties. In Leviticus 18:22-23 we are told bestiality defiles those who practice it. In homosexuality also both party defile each other.

Quote: BW
What do you mean by ensnared. Do you believe that homosexuality is some melevolent force? I do not believe that my sexuality harms me or others.

Indeed like many other intangible qualities such a jealousy, hatred or unresolved guilt it can work its way through a mans mind and heart like a cancer. All habitual sin is like this but homosexuality particularly so. Of all the homosexuals I have known I can not think of one whose relationships were not based on mutual use and dependence as opposed to selfless love.

Quote: BW
As a person I try to live in a way which is sensitive to the needs of others, I dont believe my attraction to my own sex prevents me from doing this and contributing my all to humanity. I try to live as Jesus taught, showing love and compassion, justice and humility.

Yet Jesus taught he had not come to nullify old testament law but rather to complete it. Even if you feel comfortable setting aside laws against homosexuality how can you excuse it as fornication?

Quote:
I obviously dont always succeed, but that lies in the domain of grace.


I will be the last to argue against grace but grace dose not change what is right and wrong but that one can be absolved for ones wrongs.

Quote:
As far as my quote from Quaker Faith and practice goes I merely wanted to speak from my faith perspective, I wasn't proslytising and I hope you can respect my beliefs in the same way I respect yours, although I might disagree with you.

I respect truth and so also my beliefs in so much as I believe them to be true. If I did not believe them to be true I would not hold such beliefs

Quote:
If you despise homosexuality than that is clearly your view and I cant change that. i only wish that people could see that we're not fundamentally immoral or evil sex-monsters. We're no more imperfect than any other human being and deserve no special and prolonged moralising on that account. If you prick us, do we not bleed?

All sin full acts are fundamentally immoral. Any human being who has ever fornicated has committed an act more fitting for an evil sex monster. From the time the first lie pops out of our mouths as children we know sin. It is not homosexuals I deem suitable for special treatment but the philosophy of post modernistic relative ethics in general. It is the homosexual movement rather than homosexuals I decry.

Now perhaps, people can begin to understand why a once devout catholic like myself now has an almost fervant dislike of the Church which borders on hatred?

I say practice what you preach. Ben, you practice the love you preach, but unfortunately, others do not.

sasha
xxx

p.s. Good luck in your quest to bring the religious/spiritual societies, and ours, into mutually beneficial dialogue, and I´ll be praying like the good heathen I am to all the gods for you!


-- Edited by chemicalfears at 13:55, 2005-11-24

though you might need a prayer, so here it is:

Grant, O God/s, thy protection,
and in protection, strength,
and in strength, understanding,
and in understanding, knowledge,
and in knowledge, the knowledge of justice,
and in the knowledge of justice, the love of it,
and in that love, the love of all existences,
and in the love of all existences, the love of God/s,
God/s and all goodness

-- Edited by chemicalfears at 14:05, 2005-11-24

Has anyone else been stopped by the mormons in hyde park yet? I had the pleasure yesterday only to be told that God accepts all sinners: rapists, murderers and gays. I apprecaite they think that being gay is a sin, but why is it that being gay and being a serial killer are viewed as being equal offences?

Hi,

Does the Christian Union actually accept homosexual members?

It doesn't sound like they'll be very welcoming.

Joe

Hey Jesusbitch, hows it going? Was wondering, have you heard from any of the other societies yet?

There's a lot of talk about Christians but not much else? Is that because there's been no response?

Joe