attitudes to christianity

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

attitudes to christianity

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

Unlike a lot of people I know, I was brought up as an atheist - and I would say that that label sufficiently describes my religous beliefs. I was never taken to church or Christend - although my Mum did tell us traditional Christian stories, not to affirm a belief in God or Christian ethos, but because often the basic moral messages of the stories were good - love thy neighbour, forgiveness and all that.

I personally have Christian members of my family and Christian friends - I respect them and their right to believe in what they want. The only time I will ever contest them if their belief affects me in anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by: shymike
"something that has shocked me slightly since joining the lgbt is some people's attitudes to christianity. there often seems to be an assumption among lgbt-ers that all christians are queer bashing, hate filled bigots, too wrapped up in their own faith to recognise its unsuitability to modern day life and values. ."

I think that a lot of LGBT people have had to face discrimination from religous parents and the vocal religous right who are always the first to protest against any pro-gay rights legislation. This often angers LGBT people and can build up anonmosity to Christian people.

I am always careful though when I talk about Christians - this forum included - and will only ever challenge what I call the 'fundamental Christian right'. The people who are involved with 'charities' (note the onverted commas, please) such as Christian Voice and The Christian Institute have proven their homophobia in the lst six months alone through their homophobic and hateful oppositions and protests in Belfast and Bournmouth, and their opposition to the Gay Police Association and the Civil Partnerships Bill. The first 'charity' was also at the forefront of the recent letter writing campaign aimed at the BBC's showing of 'Jerry Springer - The Opera'.

Even in our own fair city, Leeds, far-right Christians have harrassed members of our society during their demos and have paraded 'ex-gays' in Dortmund Square in an attempt to prove it is something that can be cured. Homosexuality as a disease.

quote:
Originally posted by: shymike
"
i know how much the 'gay debate' has split the church, particularly the ordination of gay priests. ."

I think that very fiasco confirmed for a lot of people - LGBT or not - the archaic way in which the church works - look at the arguments in the nineties against the ordanation of women priests.

quote:
Originally posted by: shymike
"
of course, there are plenty of 'christians' who wave placards that say 'god hates fags' and stuff, but they are certainly not the majority. ."

Whilst they are not the majority, I think that they make up a huge part of the current true Christian movement.

I think a lot of people in this country tick the 'Christian' box on forms and census because its habit - copare the number of people who tick the box to the number of people that practice their faith - even in the smallest of forms - and I think you'll find a huge difference.

quote:
Originally posted by: shymike
"
the most common attitude (even among conservatives) is that they should hate the crime, not the criminal, meaning they disapprove of the homosexual sexual act, but don't go around telling us we're all going to burn in hell. for example, a gay man who was celibate is blameless in the eyes of most conservative christians.
."

I'm not sure whether you are defending that view or just stating it Mike, but either way it is a phrase I hate hearing - it is one used as an argument to attempt to justify or defend someones homophobia.

The act of homosexuality - ie, being attracted to other men, having relationships with other men, and having sex with other men - is intrisicly linked with the self-definition 'homosexual'. They aren't exclusive of each other. Thats like me saying to our members 'hate Chistianity, not the Christian'.

quote:
Originally posted by: shymike
"
right, back to me for a bit. personally, i'm offended on the part of the c of e when SOME gay people dismiss the whole organisation out of hand.
."

Sorry to pedantic Mike, but I had to correct that sentence.

And then I will respond to it by saying that personally I'm offended on the part of the LGBTQ movement and communites by the way some Christians, including some members of the C of E, use their religon to justify homophobia, promote hatred, censorship and inequality.

John K xx

-- Edited by JohnK at 20:05, 2005-01-18

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

I'd also like to put to death now any belief that the society as a body, is in anyway anti-religon, christianity or anti-faith. Far from it.

The LGBT, whilst challenging homophobia in any situation, is here to support all LGBT students regardless of religous background.

We will always protect our members from abuse and discrimination, but will always encourage civilised debate about religon.

I thought everyone might be interested in some of these links, which are to LGBT-Faith organistions:

www.lgcm.org.uk

This is the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement. It is inclusive of all denominations.

www.questgaycatholic.org.uk

This is Quest, a Catholic LGBT organisation

www.jglg.org.uk

This is a group for L and G Jewish people.

www.al-fatiha.org.uk

Al-Fatiha is a Muslim LGBTQ Organisation

If anyone has any other links to add to this list, let me know - they will soon be going on the website :)

Thanks

John K xx

-- Edited by JohnK at 20:09, 2005-01-18

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

ppppps.

I ticked the last box as I didn't agree with any of the other statements.

My view of the Church is that it has a right to exist - but so do I, and that I will defend both of those rights. What I won't tolerate, is intolerance - on either part.

I thankyou.

I'm off for a cuppa now - parched!

John K x

Adam · *Censored*

Got to agree with John there, the problem I have with Christians is with pressure groups and vocal organisations, as far as I am concerned I have no problem with the presence of the institution of Christianity. Groups like the Christian Institute are biggoted, and whilst they are entitled to their opinions the problem is that they think that it is their place to put the world to rights, to protest, to act on the behalf of the general public and that is where they cross the line.

Interesting that John raised the issue of the Jerry Springer Opera, as I mad a major rant about this when I found out what they did in opposition to it's showing. The leader of the pressure group was brought onto radio 5 for a debate with the show's producer and whilst they producer made a clear and reasonable arguement, the christian leader shouted abuse at him and told him he was going to hell - when it was clear that he had never even seen a production of the opera, having no idea what the content really was. Further to that he claimed to be acting on behalf of the nation in trying to ban, when actually Jerry Springer got very high viewer ratings. It is not the place of the Christian Church to oppose freedom of specch, and certianly not their place to incite riots outside the director of BBC2's house, which meant that he and his family had to be moved by the police. Is this really the work of God?

I certainly don;'t feel like I could be accepted by the Christian church; whilst I believe that most members of the church are good people who mean no harm to me, or to the rest of the LGBT population, there are groups of fundemental Christians who do the name of the church great harm by imposing their largely biggoted opinions on everybody and claiming that they are doing it for our good. It is not the place of the church to damn me for the way that I am, and it is not the place of the church to speak on the behalf of public or act for our good. These people have to accept that society has changed, and the boundaries of tolerance and respect must change with it. They should also respect that people have freedom to ignore the church without being denounced by it and the public have the right to choose whether to do things like watch a program like Jerry Sprigner if they want to. At the end of the day, if every christian practiced te church's original ideals of peace and love to everybody, there would be no reason for us to take issue with them.

richardyoung71 · *Censored*

Like mike, i was brought up being taken to church by my mum and i went to catholic schools too. Both my brothers stopped going to church years ago, but i still go with my mum when i'm home, probably for similar reasons to why mike still goes. Having said that, i do still get something out of going to church, it's just kinda hard to explain. I certainly don't agree with or believe in everything the Catholic church says, but then i dont feel i have to. I believe in God above any religion, and going to church gives me an outlet to express my faith etc. I've never experienced any kind of religion-based hatred because of my sexuality ( i reckon they can't tell

) and i dont know anyone connected with religion who actually disapproves with homosexuality. Two of the girls i live with are in the Christian Union and have no problem. I think like a lot of things, the voice of a minority is sometimes louder than the silent majority, but i spose whilst there is even a minority there a problem which needs to be dealt with.

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

a common response seems to be 'i don't mind the christians, as long as they don't affect me/ try to make me a christian'. while i totally understand, and to some extent agree with this statement, there does seem something slightly not-in-my-back-yard about it. i can't quite come up with a proper counter to the statement, but it doesn't quite sit right with me.

i can understand that because some lgbt people have suffered discrimination at the hands of the church, they are natrually wary of it. what bothers me is that some people take the views of the vocal minority to reflect the attitudes of the whole church, and the whole thing decends into a rather childish 'us and them' battle. both sides obviously think they're in the right and think the others are curiously misguided.

the bit about the archaic way in which the church works. again, this is often the angry conservatives kicking and screaming as the rest of the church drags itself into the modern world. also, the processes for change are necessarily slow in an organisation like the c of e. if wide reaching changes to doctrine could be made quickly and easily, the foundation of the church would be subject to every whim and passing fad. the set up, requiring large majorities in the house of bishops and stuff, ensures that only long lasting, sound alterations are made.

the example of women priests has been quoted as being an example of the churches backward looking nature. the thing is, women priests were allowed, and are now very common, taking very high ranking positions in the clergy. the church has now moved on to the 'should women be allowed to be bishops' debate. if the church was that archaic, the debate wouldn't have even got off the floor.

while i agree with the idea that homosexuality includes more than just the sexual act, the bible doesn't see it that way. as far as i'm aware, the only thing that is actually prohibited in the bible is men sleeping together. no mention of being attracted to men or having any other kind of relationships with men.

personally, i haven't had any religion based homophobia directed towards me either. i suppose it's partly because i don't come across as particularly camp. but even if the people at church knew i was gay, i don't think there'd be too much opposition (if opposition is the right word). i remember my mother telling me about a family who stopped going to church because one busy-body old lady tut-tutted about their lesbian daughter, but i can't imagine any of the priests saying anything. infact, i know one priest in his eighties who surprised me with his relaxed attitude to it all.

an interesting attitude was that shown by my older sister. she went all evangelical when she went to university, and is one of those 'active' christians. when i told her i was gay, her response was yes, she thought it was a sin, but no more serious than all the petty things everyone gets up to. certainly not as serious as disrespecting one's parents, which, being one of the commandments, is quite high up there, and something absolutely everyone does to some extent.

just for completeness, i'll tell you about my other siblings too. my brother stopped going to church when he was about 14 or 15. so i know i could easily stop going if i wanted to without my mother having a heart attack. my younger sister is in pretty much the same situation as me (without the homosexuality) in that she goes at home to keep mother happy, but doesn't go when she's at uni or anything. i guess the reason me and my little sis keep going is just to avoid the ensuing 'conversation' about it. i know perfectly well my mother would try to get us to change our minds, and i'm not sure i want to sit through that. it's easier just to keep going. also, i guess as i don't know exactly how i feel about the whole god thing, i wouldn't be able to defend my position very effectively. i'm not completely off the hook though. every phone conversation i have with my mother includes the line 'have you found a church in leeds yet?'. my sister says it's the same for her.

richardyoung71 · *Censored*

quote:
Originally posted by: shymike
"

while i agree with the idea that homosexuality includes more than just the sexual act, the bible doesn't see it that way. as far as i'm aware, the only thing that is actually prohibited in the bible is men sleeping together. no mention of being attracted to men or having any other kind of relationships with men.

"

With regards to the bible, i think we have to remember that it wasn't actually written for us. There's plenty of stuff in there which is still applicable and relevant to our lives today, but it was in essence written 2000 years ago for amongst other people, persecuted Christians, living in a totally different area of the world.

Adam · *Censored*

I have nothing against christians as a whole, and I am not bothered about what the bible thinks of me, what you said Mike about the I dont care as long as it doesnt affect me attitude to christianity is pretty much how I feel.

Religion is a choice. People can choose their religion, and they can also choose not to be religious. The thing is that people who make this choice should be free to do so without interference from those who choose Christianity. By this I mean Jehovah's Witnesses knocking at my door, I mean protests from the Christian institute about what I can and can't watch on telly, and I mean homophobia, I have no problem with Christian's in my back yard as long as they can respect that I am and will remain indifferent to their religion. I dont mean this is in a nasty way, but Christianity just doesnt interest me, ans whilst most people are quite happy with this state of affiars, there are always some people who spoil the reputation of the others, and it is these people I have a problem with.

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

yes, ok, it's fine if they leave you alone. but one of the primary points of christian teaching is spreading the word. it's neglected by most who consider themselves christian, but really, they should all spend a fair amount of time trying to convert others. like drew discovered when he met my mother.....

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

quote:
Originally posted by: shymike
"yes, ok, it's fine if they leave you alone. but one of the primary points of christian teaching is spreading the word. it's neglected by most who consider themselves christian, but really, they should all spend a fair amount of time trying to convert others. like drew discovered when he met my mother....."

I find the thought of actively seeking to convert others pretty distasteful actually.

I might also add I'm completely against religous schools and think that religon should be taken out of the classroom (not to the extreme that France has taken in it, but in the sense that one religous ethos should preside over all others). I think true faith is something very personal and can't be imposed on you by another person.

You have the right to practice your religon. I have the right not to listen, disagree with it, and criticise it. Because religon is about belief - belief is a choice, and choices are changeable and flexible.

richardyoung71 · *Censored*

As far as 'spreading the word' is concerned i think there are much more effective ways of getting a message or a way of life across than just 'preaching' in the traditional sense of the word. I think merely being a good person and helping people shows others how they can make their lives better.

When it comes to religious schools, i have first hand experience of them and they aren't half as bad as they sound! A prayer each morning and a mass at Christmas and Easter was probably the only noticeable difference from other schools. There was also very little pressure to believe in a certain religion or view point as well. Half the kids there didn't go to church regularly and there were plenty of atheists too.

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

i agree with John on the single faith schools, they promote jus one religion and teach its pupils under it and is segregation. Segregation within communities leads to misunderstandings, ignorance and conflicts, this issue was recognised in the racial policy following the Bradford riots and saw many interfaith organisations and schools been set up to deal with these issues. The school i went to wasn't a single faith school but in the 2 n abit years i lasted in RE lessons (was removed due to differences with the re teacher) we wer taught christianity inside out and had jus one term where we were told about the basics of the other religions, hardly a balanced perspecitve. My opinion is that schools should look at/teach each religion in equal depth so that kids are given a balanced view and not pushed into learning just one

richardyoung71 · *Censored*

I kinda agree with your point about segregation, but like i said no-one was forced to believe anything, and we were taught about other religions as well.

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

thats cool then i know of some schools around me that wer meant 2 have been pretty 1-sided in wot they taught

Adam · *Censored*

quote:
Originally posted by: NickyDyke85
". The school i went to wasn't a single faith school but in the 2 n abit years i lasted in RE lessons (was removed due to differences with the re teacher) we wer taught christianity inside out and had jus one term where we were told about the basics of the other religions, hardly a balanced perspecitve. My opinion is that schools should look at/teach each religion in equal depth so that kids are given a balanced view and not pushed into learning just one"

Got to agree there, we read the bible non stop on RE but never really did more than a brief overview of any other religion. That doesnt really bother me seeing as it is the principal religion of this country still, true pretty much everyone will have grown up singing Christian hyms in school assemblies. The problem comes when people take it too far, there are schools in America where Darwinism isn't taught at all, only the creationist theory is allowed to be taught to kids, that seems strange to me.

Regarding converting people, I dont really think that can be applicable to today's society. I agree with Richard that setting a good example is a good way to go about it, but it is quite an unfeeling thing to do to target people and tell them they are going to hell. There was a vicar who used to come into our school assemblies in years 7-11 at school and his basic line was join us or go to hell. That's just rude really, especially to be preaching that to children. I can understand that from his point of view he was doing us a favour by informing us of the 'risk' of not beliveing in god, but from an objective point of view its a fairly horrible thing to tell people. If people want to become Christians they are quite capable of doing so themselves, it shouldnt be as a result of what is effectively bullying.

thaidave · Not Thai Dave

Jah Wit/Buddhist Perspectives

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

RE: attitudes to christianity

inlowercase · I caught you a delicious bass.

I don’t know if this is going to be a very popular view but I believe that there are certain things that should just not be taught in schools at all. These subjects involve sex education and religion. I believe that these subjects are too personal for a child to be learning from a stranger in a less than one to one basis. I believe that is up to the parents of the children to instil a child with the tools that they need to live. I think that these subjects should be as important to parents as morality and toilet training (although I know these things are unrelated I find that they are two of the most useful things my parents taught me).

Adam · *Censored*

Information about religion should be taught in schools as it promotes religious tolerance, whichis obviously important. I think it should be up to the parents to teach their children to grow up with a religion if they want to.

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

quote:
Originally posted by: inlowercase
"I don’t know if this is going to be a very popular view but I believe that there are certain things that should just not be taught in schools at all. These subjects involve sex education and religion. I believe that these subjects are too personal for a child to be learning from a stranger in a less than one to one basis. I believe that is up to the parents of the children to instil a child with the tools that they need to live. I think that these subjects should be as important to parents as morality and toilet training (although I know these things are unrelated I find that they are two of the most useful things my parents taught me). "

i disagree. first of all, don't try to pretend you ever fully grasped the concepts involved in toilet training. my carpet will vouch for that.

how many parents are there that could instill in a child a well rounded understanding of all the major religions, while keeping their own faith (or lack of it) out of discussion, allowing the child to make an informed decision? that kind of thing can only truly be achieved by education professionals, or better still, by faith leaders. it would probably be a good idea for schools to get in a priest, a rabbi, a cleric etc to talk about their own religion.

the bit about sex education is slightly different. i suppose it's up to the parents to get over the embarrassment and tell their kids how the breeders do it. i think most people already knew the basics before it came up in biology lessons? that said, all the tubes and hormones and stuff is probably best covered by someone who knows what they're talking about.
also, i think kids should be started early (in education that is, not the practical side of it....). my mother teaches kids aged 4 to 7, and she does sex ed with them. the earlier you start, the less confused they'll be (how many people used to think babies came out of the belly button? *blushes and puts hand up*).

-- Edited by shymike at 16:10, 2005-01-22

inlowercase · I caught you a delicious bass.

what you mean that babies dont come out of ladies belly buttons? i thought that if a man and a woman love each other very much (and are of course married!) and the man puts his thumb into a womans belly button a baby is made. is that not true?

Adam · *Censored*

Everybody knows that when a mummy and daddy have a special cuddle, then a stork comes and drops the baby on the doorstep.

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

but how does the stork know? maybe they have special cuddle detectors. yeah, that'll be it.

Adam · *Censored*

no idea, after i decided i was gay i stopped listening in sex ed

inlowercase · I caught you a delicious bass.

Dear Dr Miriam

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to scottish but not the welsh. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Thank-you.

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

hehe. you should've changed the american spelling if you wanted to pass that off as your own work. i'll have the university's crack plagiarism squad onto you, boy.

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

i stopped listenin 2 sex ed in school cos the videos wer crap, wtf is the deal wi that couple rollin round under bed covers, if ur gonna educate people gotta show em more than that. Fell sorry 4u guys tho, u missed out on the yearly talks from the "tampax" lady, it was the funniest thing 2 come round school every year, a little slide show tellin u wot they wer n answerin ur questions (even if u totally took the mick n asked well stupid questions.. she never got sarcasm) b4 handin out a goody bag of tampons n towels which always got sold on2 the lads n fired across class in middle of boring lessons, or at the re teacher when she was on 1 of her rants

ChipsAndLube · Bertha, lovely Bertha, you are a lovely machine.

my sister's mate had a houseparty once when her mum and dad had gone out for the night. this other 'girl', known only as scratty pam, was changin her rags in the bathroom, and cos she was píssed she lashed the used one out the window, just as the parents were coming home. legend has it that it landed in her dad's face, but i think that last bit is more myth than legend.

i remember asking in primary school after a very informative (ahem) catholic sex ed session, "what are you supposed to do with it when it goes all soft and gooey afterwards?" my mate emma (who turned out to be the school bike some years later) hit me and told me not to be so gross.

mmm, i feel like a special cuddle right now. hope there's no storks watching cos i might have to 'cuddle' myself.

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

lol sounds like a fun houseparty. My school was jus full of scratters tho, we had notices read out in registration tellin us that the blue bins in the bogs wer 4 stickin ur used things in & to not stick them 2 the wall.

ChipsAndLube · Bertha, lovely Bertha, you are a lovely machine.

pmsl!

you really stuck them to the walls?!

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

yeah people really stuck them 2 the walls, was my m8's fave bullyin tactic, grab whoever she wanted 2 kick **** outta, drag them in2 girls toilets n find a cubicle wi 1 stuck 2 wall kick em in a few times n 2 finalise it all held them close 2 wall threatnin 2 rub their face in it if they dint promise 2 never cross her path again...

My school was 1 of them places where if u wer gay u got battered unless u stuck up 4urself n this cow outted me n stirred up loadsa trouble 4 me so i wer in bout 3 scraps a day n on my final warnin that if i hit the lass causin hell 4 me again (last time i'd hit her i'd knocked her out or made her dizzy or summat like that) I'd get suspended, so my m8 decided 2 help me out cos she'd been stickin up 4 me since all the trouble kicked off & absolutley batter the one i wernt allowed 2 hit, she dragged her in bogs, kicked hell outta her,while i wer keepin look out n well the lass refused leave me alone thinkin my m8 wunt dare rub her face in it, all i can say is that it was bluddy brilliant 2c & the month in isolation followed by 2 months on report, that me n my m8 got 4 the whole incident was more than worth it. After that all the trouble packed up cos the news spread round n people made it out 2b alot worse than it was so every1 started 2b nice n apologize. Rough little hellhole that i went 2, but was also 1 of funniest places i've ever been in my life

-- Edited by NickyDyke85 at 00:30, 2005-01-26

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

remind me never to pick a fight with nic

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

i aint nasty n i only fight now if i really need 2 or am stickin up 4 a mate. I got friends who'll look after me tho :o)

chemicalfears · Queen of Quips

Hmm. Good question mike.

I've had my problems in the past with christianity, and do bear certain amount of animosity to the church. that is, the CHURCH, not the faith, because if people actually followed the essentials of christ's teachings, there would a) be no church organisation to distort the teachings, and b) be any reason to hate christians.

I was raised catholic, my mother ands sister are catholic, my entire family on the portuguese side are catholic, and I have no problem with it.

i don't hate christians, most of my best friends back home are sincere, devout christians - i just won't ever be going back to it. plus, I have a dislike of churches. Especially York Minster....bleeehhhhh!!!

chemicalfears · Queen of Quips

also, if the majority of the placard-waving and not so visible LGBTQ-hating christians actually STUDIED their OWN holy book, they would understand that with the coming of Christ, the Old Testament's relevance was totally destroyed. The new Testament - God's and Jesus' love for EVERYONE - replaces the Old Testament entirely.

Maybe they should remember that before telling people they are going to hell, and also that the bible explicitly states that all sins are equal in magnitude, no sin is worse than another.

Hooray for nice christians! =)

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

quote:
Originally posted by: chemicalfears
"I have a dislike of churches. Especially York Minster....bleeehhhhh!!!

"

what? why? i think it's right nice, that.

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

York minister is like this thing that humanities teachers in school used 2 love draggin u2 b4 forcing u 2 write pages of **** about the minister, city walls, that bit of castle thing & the merchants adventurers hall, Bah! Hate York!

chemicalfears · Queen of Quips

York Minster, my DEAR Michael, is the most disgusting, gaudy, tacky, shoddy piece of supposedly "sacred" architecture I have ever come across.

bleh.

ChipsAndLube · Bertha, lovely Bertha, you are a lovely machine.

quote:
Originally posted by: chemicalfears
"York Minster, my DEAR Michael, is the most disgusting, gaudy, tacky, shoddy piece of supposedly "sacred" architecture I have ever come across.

bleh."

well it's alright. it costs a lot for the upkeep though.

la sagrada familia in barcelona on the otherhand; that's a tacky, quirky and totally fantastic building site. i love it. oooh, we're onto holy buildings now!

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

i dont like churches they r 2 quiet

ChipsAndLube · Bertha, lovely Bertha, you are a lovely machine.

quote:
Originally posted by: NickyDyke85
"i dont like churches they r 2 quiet"

lol @ the thought of nic, as a toddler, humping the pews, splashing holy water over people and generally being a little shít during mass

evie · Posting Addict

quote:
Originally posted by: ChipsAndLube
"

lol @ the thought of nic, as a toddler, humping the pews, splashing holy water over people and generally being a little shít during mass "

the thought of her doing it now is also rather too realistic.

I haven't voted. IME the third option is most appropriate, but the lovely people ought to want to do good too. There are some (some too many) gay-hating bigots. They will always be there, I expect - all we can do is show the church that LGBT people won't be swept under the carpet and will keep campaigning for acceptance without stooping to the bigots' level of hatred. Once LGBT people are openly accepted into more churches (and I'm not saying that we all have to attend church to make them accept us in society - merely that the LGBT people who already attend or want to will be able to be open about their sexuality without fear of being turned on), the bigots will be unable to stand back and preach, hate and condemn from a distance. They will be forced to recognise what's in front of their faces - that just LGBT people are just as kind, just as good people and just as capable of rational belief systems as themselves.

I've dropped lucky, I think, with the church I attend. Yes there are some stick-in-the-muds who look down on the single teenage mother in our midst, and probably but there are also a lot of caring, compassionate people there who put themselves out for others time and again, who want to improve the world around them by giving practical help, by which they will spread the word of God's love and the positive impact it can have on a lot of people - not by preaching and threatening non-churchgoers into attending.

I like the church in some ways because it gives people a common purpose of doing something for overall 'good'. I DON'T have any time for anyone who cries 'i hate' in the name of being a Christian. As said above by chemicalfears, God's love for all is what's important - living your life being as helpful, nice, non-destructive and respectful to others and the world as you can. The church in my limited personal experience functions as a support network so that people can go out and do work in war-torn countries, can set up clubs to get local chavlings off the streets after school, and have the back up of like-minded people when the going gets tough.

Obviously there are cases where belonging to a certain church/religion is used to justify a person's narrow-mindedness - I won't try and deny that this kind of person exists. They tend to be not a lot of people, making a lot of noise, while other religious people with different priorities just live and let live. More and more modern churches are springing up around the country which welcome everyone, will not tolerate or promote any kind of in and out group because of people's personal qualities, but just uplift, support and motivate people in their faith. The more traditional church bodies could learn an awful lot about how to increase turnout to services from these guys.

All that 'church' means is a gathering of people. Religions satisfy the great human desire to be labelled, to be able to identify as part of a group and form in/out groups for the slightest reason. Religions give churches a reason to come together, hopefully to carry the message of love, rather than eternal damnation to all who do not 'follow the correct path' - attitudes are changing. Faith is a personal thing, which may or may not conform to a certain religion's belief system.

Better to be a believer who does his own things for his own reasons with compassion and concern for others' wellbeing (with or without the backing of a church), than a 'believer' who does all the right things at the right times by the book because he thinks it'll get him to heaven. Not sure which bit of the bible it's in, but I like the meaning of it.

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

hey, i'll have u all know the last time i was in a church, I was very well behaved thank ya! Ok I was still as drunk as fook from night b4 n holdin my god-daughter but i survived the whole of her christening without causin any church related trouble

chemicalfears · Queen of Quips

i hate going to churches...i keep getting told off by my dad for not singing any of the hymns!

me: "of course not, I'm not a christian.."
dad: "i dont bloody care, you'll sing or i'll smack you!"
me:"I don't get it: you're jewish but you'll sing christian songs...why?"
dad: "easy - jesus was a good jewish boy"

lol.

me
xx

shymike · I don't vote Tory!

hahahahhhahahahahahahhhahahaha

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

Thats quite amusing

JesusBitch · Forum Addict

I get the impression from the posts I've seen that queer people seem to think that its them and us, you're Christian or your're Queer, this is of course not true. As a gay man and a Christian I know I speak for a minority, but I'd like to speak from my minority position to dismiss some common misconceptions about Christianity. Firstly God does not hate fags, as many American bigots suggested after the death of Mathew Shepard. God through Jesus calls humanity to a common purpose, a project which transcends socially constructed destinctions. God through Jesus represents a kind of perfect human being full of compassion for all humanity, this is demonstrated by the people he spent most of his time with. Jesus was a champion of those which Jewish society at the time excluded, sex-workers, the disabled, racial aliens and the poor. Jesus did not condemn these people, he counted them among his closest friends. He famously said, "I have not come to judge the world, I have come to heal it"- Matt. His mission was not and never has been to victimise those who outward society sees as different. God is love as it says in John. Salvation offered through Jesus is about inclusion, not exclusion. Jesus makes it clear that everyone, even those which the mainstream disaprove can play a part in God's Kingdom, he says, "Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The very stone which the builders rejected has become the Cornerstone!" -Matthew 21

Secondly from an ethical point of view Jesus is never recorded as saying anything concerning same-sex relationships, neither did pander to the prejudices and hate which many Christians now attribute to him. Coupled with this fact Jesus own moral position can be summed up the following statements:
&"Love one another"- John 15:12
& "Blessed are the Merciful, for they shall obtain mercy".Matthew 5
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. ." - Matt 22:37-40
This message of understanding does not sit well with your average homophobic, since Christian ethics require us to find with everyone, attempt to reconcile differences and become aware we are all children of God, made in his image for his purpose.

ben

ChipsAndLube · Bertha, lovely Bertha, you are a lovely machine.

well said ben.

and welcome to the forum x

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

hey ben