Get Bent! (in a good way, y'understand...)

dj bj · Chic Alors

Get Bent! (in a good way, y'understand...)

dj bj · Chic Alors

just wanted to add that although i dont identify with a lot of 'the scene' stuff, im not condeming anyone who does. This event is (for me, i cant speak for anyone else) an alternative and not mutually exclusive to anyone who does go out on the scene. i know anti-pride is a difficult concept and like many things it simply doesnt find into simple YOU ARE and YOU AREN'T binaires....

so yeah, give it a go, the manchester queer activists are lovely people :)

x
bob

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

Whilst I don't think this event is for me (I am not rebelling against my affluent middle class background, because I haven't got one) I hope everyone who goes has fun :)

I suppose Anti-Pride is something I don't identify with as it immediately sets itself up against something. And as my article in Leeds student argued (I'm like a Journalist, yeah! lol) Pride for a lot of people is so much more than overpriced drinks and clubbing.

However Manchester Pride is probably one fo the best and and most community focused prides going - sure we get all the usual commercial stuff (which without we wouldn't have events like this one remember) but there also some great alt events like poetry, film, art, sport, youth stuff, womens space, comedy, history trails and lots of other shennanigans.

www.manchesterpride.com for more info :)

-- Edited by JohnK at 23:15, 2005-08-20

Date: Mon Aug 22 20:59 2005

i think being frustrated at what the gay scene has to offer is something that anyone can feel regardless of their class background or their affluency, and its a pretty ignorant assumption you've made about the people that might attend the event... but yeah i sort of argree with everything else you've said, and ive tried to point out that whatever 'being alternative' means, it doesnt neccessarily conflict with going to pride.

i cant believe this is such a contentious issue, cos it always winds me up and i feel compelled to defend any criticisms, yet i dont see myself as being either 'scene' or 'non-scene' or whatever else it i am... anyway, debating is good
xxx
bob

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

Anonymous wrote:

i think being frustrated at what the gay scene has to offer is something that anyone can feel regardless of their class background or their affluency, and its a pretty ignorant assumption you've made about the people that might attend the event... but yeah i sort of argree with everything else you've said, and ive tried to point out that whatever 'being alternative' means, it doesnt neccessarily conflict with going to pride.

i cant believe this is such a contentious issue, cos it always winds me up and i feel compelled to defend any criticisms, yet i dont see myself as being either 'scene' or 'non-scene' or whatever else it i am... anyway, debating is good
xxx
bob

I didn't really say that feeling disenfranchised by the gay scene is class unique - it certianly isn't and Ihave often time felt alienated on the scene too. I just find that these diy free for all 'inclusive' events are often dominated by those from the middle class. That isn't the hard and fast rule, it's just my experiences of such events. Neither do I have anything against such events. I just find it frustrating when these events claim to be inclusive when, in being an antethesis to something, they automatically become exclusive.

And just to play devils advocate, if these cooperateive, diy, free for all, non commercial events became more popular, would the people that run and attend them now still be intersted in the issues and ideologies they profess to care for so much. I don't think so. Often being involved with these alternative, diy events is for the sake of being alternative, rather that being inclusive and different.

Maybe I am being a pessimist, maybe I should come to Get Bent. But maybe I feel that I will be just as alienated there as I would be on the dancefloor of federation because I don't fit in with what either crowd think I should be.

Also Bob, I am not asking you to place yourself in a box - 'scene' or 'non-scene'. Firstly, I don't really care what someone considers themselves to be. I don't think I am particulary scene. But then again I wouldn't call myself non-scene either - I think it is pretty negative and 'exclusive' to label oneself in such a way. I am just me. I enjoy going out with my friends. Thats it really. I am just as happy shaking my ass in Fibre with Emily as I am jumping up and down in Razz with Emily. Even though I am often anxious about going to places in fear of fitting in, I have eventually learnt that being myself and being with my friends is more important that fitting myself into one of the many queer camps.

JOHN

-- Edited by JohnK at 23:33, 2005-08-22

ChipsAndLube · Bertha, lovely Bertha, you are a lovely machine.

ditto

Date: Wed Aug 24 13:43 2005

out of curiousity john, which diy queer events have you been going to?

im not questioning your experiences, cos i get totally intimated by some people until i get to know them, but now i know some of the leeds activists theyre great people and the manchester ones i know are even more approachable and amazing, if you've ever been to an event organised by kaffee queeria in manc id be pretty suprised if you felt so alienated but maybe thats just me.

No, that is just me. sorry, this isnt meant to be so personal i just want to understand why these events are veiwed so negatively and where this idea of middleclass faux rebellion comes from...
x
b

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

It's not my experiences I am referring to really, because I am pretty headstrong (but that doesn't mean I want to go putting myself in uncomfortable situations). And I am not really being negative about them.

All I am saying is that I find it frustrating that these type of events claim to be 'inclusive' when by their own ideologies they are not - if something is 'anti-pride' then it is against something in my opinion, and that makes it exclusive. I also find the whole concept of anti pride disappointing, for want of a better word. And down right offensive to those who did and still do use pride for it's political influence and the creation of a visible and strong LGBT community.

This is all based on personal opinion, and maybe, like I said, I should come more often to these events if I am going to give a rounded opinion on them. But don't for one minute try to convince me that these events are completely inclusive, because they are not.

Date: Sun Aug 28 17:03 2005

okay i can kind of see where you're coming from now, but anti-pride is not anti-gay. Its more anti-PrideÂ© . Its against the way such a commercial event makes everyone the same, caters for the lowest common demoninator and stereotypes along the way. I am completely proud of being gay/queer/whatever and i reckon everyone at an anti-PrideÂ© event is too, creating a very visible diverse community.
but yeah i can see this goin on and on, we'll agree to disagree :) x

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

Well my Pride was excellent.

Marched on the Parade, which whilst being hilarious and fun was also great this year for the political statements it made.

I went to two great nights - Homoelectric and Poptastic - both famous Manchester alternative nights.

Went to see the community stalls and the market which were both cool and I have a rainbow mug! lol :)

I am not the lowest common denominator, I am me, and more than half the people there weren't it either. There were laods of events going on over the ten days and the only thing you needed a band for was to get into the pubs and clubs. All the arts, youth and film events were free, as was the parade and a coupole of the fringe nights - like Club Clique, Homoelectric and Achtung! at Retro.

This commerical event is so important. Me and Ally were walking up the street and we heard a man explaining to his daughter that love is the same no matter who it is between. That for me is what Pride is about - changing hearts and minds. If you can't see that behind the commericial anc corporate sponsorship - (which do have to be there for the event to exsist seeing as it draws in thousands of people) then your looking at it the wrong way. All anti-pride does is segregate. If you want to change the way thigns work, intergrate and get involved and don't be afraid to be who you are!

I would let this lie from that last post, but I think you've completely missed the point of Pride all together and are simply refusing to see the good it actually does, behind all the commercial stuff. That to me is what is important, and that is why I will always defend Pride events, because they do make a difference to the lives of many people accross the cities that run them.

Adam · *Censored*

Having now been to pride, I can see what you mean now Bob. Whilst I do think it is a good thing that so many people turn up to pride to show their support, and that there is money raised for charities and stuff, there is no doubt that there are people being made very rich at the expense of the gay community. Saturday night at Manchester Uni was £21 entry, and they expect 4,000 people to attend, as well as pay through the arse for drinks, and I really doubt that the profit will be all headed off to charity somehow. Plus the fact that a lot of the adversiting that went on at pride was promoting the idea that all gays want to do is get drunk and **** as many people as they can. I certainly dont. Like I said, i think pride is important, and it acts as an important platform for education and politics, but it does seem to do so at the expense of the people attending, both in terms of the money they shell out, and the generalisation of gay culture it creates.

NickyDyke85 · YouCanaeSmokeNayHashOn'Ere!

I didnt go 2 pride cos I had no money & was workin... While I agree with the ethics of pride, I aint keen on the expense of events n drinks, etc.

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

I don't agree with all that expense either, however non of those commercial events were compulsory and there were plenty of cheaper options (and soem even free options) over the entire 10 days as I have highlighted. If you don't wanna pay the £21 to go to uni challenge, you don't have to. but many people do wanna go. It is supposed to be a wicked night as well with a fairground and allsortsd of other stuff.

The advertising wasn't as in your face as I think your making it out to be either Adam, as I didn't really see that much of it - maybe you could give examples. The Corona bottles that kept walking up the street made me laugh though.

And to be honest Adam, you saw teh diversity of people at Pride - just in Poptastic there were loads of different people. And if you segregate yourself away from Pride, how is it gonna cater for you?

Date: Tue Aug 30 11:38 2005

I think what's critical about the political/economic style of Pride is that although the 'traditional' pride events have been excellent in promoting the profile of the Gay community as a whole, they leave much to be desired. As Adam was saying, the commericalisation stresses debauchery and drunken behavior which large sections (yound and old) of the community don't identify with.
It could be seen as optional to take part in the expensively overpriced commercial events but by their financial success from public endorsements these events gain power through their large voice in how Pride is organised and promoted. Money talks and Pride events are expensive to organise, police and clean up. As advertisers drift away from the pink parades because the cachet of being associated with the 'hip' and 'cool' gay events is decreasing, Pride needs to make up the shortfall.
I kind of identify with the shallow, materialistic and commercial events of Pride because I've grown up exposed to that kind of media, and I simply think it's fun and so I like it. But at the same time I think 'alternative' events don't have to be seen as 'Anti-' anything: they can be promoting a different image. If the Cancer industry has been able to move the image of the disease away from women whose hair is falling out and men whose prostates are failing them simply by making it everyday, associating their cause with (fundraising) sports events, can't the Gay Community do the same thing? Can't we move away from simply being a rallying cry for Diesel Jeans and become something greater?

PatrickT · Forum Guru

aaargh. that was me -> up above. Anonymous no longer.

thaidave · Not Thai Dave

The cancer industry??? LMAO!!!!! (Other, than that, agree partially) won't share my views on pride due to fear of public crucifixion..... (a metaphor for pride itself)

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

Anonymous wrote:

I think what's critical about the political/economic style of Pride is that although the 'traditional' pride events have been excellent in promoting the profile of the Gay community as a whole, they leave much to be desired. As Adam was saying, the commericalisation stresses debauchery and drunken behavior which large sections (yound and old) of the community don't identify with.
It could be seen as optional to take part in the expensively overpriced commercial events but by their financial success from public endorsements these events gain power through their large voice in how Pride is organised and promoted. Money talks and Pride events are expensive to organise, police and clean up. As advertisers drift away from the pink parades because the cachet of being associated with the 'hip' and 'cool' gay events is decreasing, Pride needs to make up the shortfall.
I kind of identify with the shallow, materialistic and commercial events of Pride because I've grown up exposed to that kind of media, and I simply think it's fun and so I like it. But at the same time I think 'alternative' events don't have to be seen as 'Anti-' anything: they can be promoting a different image. If the Cancer industry has been able to move the image of the disease away from women whose hair is falling out and men whose prostates are failing them simply by making it everyday, associating their cause with (fundraising) sports events, can't the Gay Community do the same thing? Can't we move away from simply being a rallying cry for Diesel Jeans and become something greater?

I am a little confused about your 'position', as it were, Patrick. I think I have explained enough about what Pride in Manchester specifically does. I am not a regualr attendee at other pride events, but I know the one in Manchester, whilst being commerical, does huge amounts of good in raising awarness both within and outside the LGBT 'community'. If you can't see behind the advertising, drinking and dancing (which are all fun and something I enjoy) then you ain't looking hard enough at all the other things that it does and all the other things that go on during Pride - both in the village and out of it, during Pride and throughout the year. Some of Manchester biggest charities supporting LGBT people and those for LGBT people with HIV simply wouldn't exsist without Pride because of the amount of cash it generates for them.

I don't want to keep repeating myself and I know everyone here has a right to an opinion. I just think people need to look past the commerical side of Pride and see all the wonderful things it actually does through money raising, awarness raising and the alternative events (yes alternative events, there were events like this at Pride) and arty things that took place.

Oh and Pat, I think when events specifically advertise themselves as anti-pride, it is fair to view them as anti-pride events :)

thaidave · Not Thai Dave

I disagree, (predictably)

Patrick has raised some good points and you can't just defend pride for the sake that this is pride. It may be the best thing going and raises some good points and alternative events etc... but there are a lot of walking contradictions (e.g. an NUS Campaign supposedly working to lower the "pink pound" but then working within in environment which charges a tenner to walk down a street being a key example). I think likewise that alternative events, though admittedly not always for me, have a part to play in gay society and do their best to be inclusive... I think it is nice that Bob advertises these events on the forum and i would be interested in seeing what they are like this year, despited kinda shunning them last year. Let's also remember that Pride represents different things for different people but caters more to the scene queens compared to the alternatives. (sorry if i'm boxing you - if you have a problem with this please feel free to martyr yourself in protest) People have their own opinions about the gay world and it's up to everyone to have their own inner pride and their own inner one-ness with sexuality.... (Although 15 ugly bears in santa outfits adequately sums up the freakshow i know as my sexuality)
Plus, surely all these events are about opening doors and making new friends, having good nights out and generally enjoying yourself... I don't see any reason for masked snipes and overted opinions when everyone is essentially after a good time and more friends. Good luck with the razz stuff et al. Bob, and good luck to everyone else too

Thats my opinion anyways... feel free to decapitate me

Dave x

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

Patrick has raised some good points and you can't just defend pride for the sake that this is pride

I have defended for the reason I have mentioned above, but also quite happily admitted to Prides bad points. Patrick does raise some good points and I have not disregarded his post, I simply disagree with it.

I think it is nice that Bob advertises these events on the forum

So do I, and I give my full support and blessing to anyone wishing to go to them. However, I have a right to criticise them where I feel there is something wrong with them, just as Bob and anyone else has a right to criticise Pride.

Let's also remember that Pride represents different things for different people but caters more to the scene queens compared to the alternatives.

Indeed it does Dave, but there are events out there that have catered for alternative people (again, like Dave, sorry for the broad labelling). Getting an event organised for Pride is free and there were plenty of successful fringe, film, art and sport events that catered for those who wanted and alternative to the commercial side of Pride (which a lot of people do enjoy and want to be a part of)

Plus, surely all these events are about opening doors and making new friends, having good nights out and generally enjoying yourself... I don't see any reason for masked snipes and overted opinions when everyone is essentially after a good time and more friends

I am not sure if that comment was aimed at me personally, but I don't think I have made any snipey comments really. I have given my opinion, like everyone else has. I am entitled to do that.

Good luck with the razz stuff et al. Bob, and good luck to everyone else too

I join you in wishing him luck and the society has always supported Razz as an event. I know Bob is mature enough to understand that what I say is simply my opinion, and he should think no less of me for being able to express that. Differing ways of thinking don't necessarily mean that we are suddenly any less friendly with eachother.

-- Edited by JohnK at 19:39, 2005-08-30

thaidave · Not Thai Dave

John, don't make the mistake of thinking that things i write or voice relate to you. You know me well enough by now to know i am happy to talk with you about my opinions, even when they differ with yours. Looking at the point-by-point reply we have many similar opinions... and i think that Bob et al. offer a great option on the alternative scene(s). I would ask you to respect my comments and not deconstruct them bit by bit (in accordance with your own opinions that everyone should have a say). I have offered my opinion to the overall thread and title and i think i am entitled to do this

I am sure you agree.

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

Well that reply sorta was directed at me dave as you opend it 'I disagree' after my last point.

But I apologise for the confusion.

However, I am allowed to 'deconstruct' your posts and it is a normal thing to do when replying to a message on a forum so that you can address each point raised by another forum member. Whether the comment you posted was aimed at me or not, I am allowed to dicuss your points bit by bit if I so wish. That's what the quote button is for and why i would use it when discussing people's posts.

PatrickT · Forum Guru

My position! love it.

My main point was really that I just like the idea of there being something that isn't the traditional booze-fest that Pride can be. That's fun and I like it since I'm a silly faggot, but from a political standpoint I don't think it presents the best image of gay life as a whole for the public who aren't aware, even though it does have fantastic 'fringe' benefits like raising tons of money for good causes. If you're a hip and liberal Queer as Folk watching grandma then that's cool, but my grandparents are not like that and don't really understand that being Gay isn't all about drag queens, poppers and AIDS.

I didn't look at the original post ('Get Bent') as being anti-pride because in the body it uses the word 'antidote' to pride which I think is a good one. Anti-Pride would be a whole other thing completely, as 'dj bj' says, " i know anti-pride is a difficult concept"...

Anyway, that's all. And don't worry about offending me, I have two sisters, it takes much more than disagreeing in opinion to piss me off! I like this thread! It's passionate!

Date: Thu Sep 1 11:34 2005

wow this post has run... i havent been able to keep up (i dont have me own 'puter acces now :( ) on a skim read through the only thing i really object to is the idea that an event like Get Bent is a form of segregation. As ive maintained all along various events are compatible, although i didnt go to pride, i still enjoy the occassional cliched 'gay' night out. And i think Pride events were a good thing, but times have moved on a bit and they dont have the same impact as they initially did. i know its only my opinion but the news coverage of manchester pride left me a bit embarrassed - it seemed like a big recruitment rally. Which is a wider issue about how i personally idenfiy with being gay, and why people seem to take this so personally.

i know this is an emotive thread and just wanna confirm what john said about this not being personal. without being patronising i do think its good to debate stuff and air ideas.
x
bob

thaidave · Not Thai Dave

JohnK wrote:

Well that reply sorta was directed at me dave as you opend it 'I disagree' after my last point.

But I apologise for the confusion.

However, I am allowed to 'deconstruct' your posts and it is a normal thing to do when replying to a message on a forum so that you can address each point raised by another forum member. Whether the comment you posted was aimed at me or not, I am allowed to dicuss your points bit by bit if I so wish. That's what the quote button is for and why i would use it when discussing people's posts.

quite so

i agree with most of the stuff you have said but you seem to disregard the importance of pride a vehicle to make some companies very wealthy. I think this is a key point and a real turn-off for pride. I wouldn't begrudge you the chance to bring me down a peg or two, John; truth be told, i quite enjoy the challenge. I can see how pride is a good thing... i just think it's a cop-out to be proud of extortion.

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

thaidave wrote:

you seem to disregard the importance of pride a vehicle to make some companies very wealthy.

JohnK wrote:

I don't agree with all that expense either

I don't think I have disregarded that side of it, as I illustrated in the quote above from one of my previous posts. And if that isn't good enough I don't agree that companies should make all that money. But Pride is more than that, and it isn't compulsory to hand over your cash, as I have illustrated.

Just to clarify, I ain't proud of extortion. Because it aint compulsory to pay for the extortionate club events. I am proud of all the good things that pride does and will do in the future via the HUGE amount of money it has and does raise for charities helping support LGBT people in the North West.

I am not about brining people down a peg or two. I am about challenging peoples opinions through debate. So don't put a twisted slant on my intent in debating with you and others.

And Bob. Next year hopefully you might come to Pride and have a look what is going on. The coverage of Pride tends to focus on teh bigger events - such as the parade, and less focus is placed on all teh fringe events and the vigil at the close of pride which are so important to Manchester Pride specifically. :)

Have fun at Get Bent this weekend :)

JOHN

PeterJ · Dame Poofy

I Got Bent

JohnK · Pieces of me you've never seen

RE: Get Bent! (in a good way, y'understand...)