I don’t intend to rant, or abuse you; I merely wish to point out that theologically your interpretation of the homosexual question is deeply inaccurate and shows a sketchy interpretation of scripture. As you know, instruction on homosexual behaviour is believed to be found directly only in two places, (excluding a rather confusing passage in Romans), in the cannon, first Leviticus (18:22) and Corinthians (6:9-10). The first condemnation in the Hebrew Bible is simple enough, however its usage in terms of modern Christianity is deeply problematic.
Firstly the Leviticus Law Code was a Jewish-specific set of ritual-forms and was meant to be obeyed by the Jews only, for the purpose of keeping them racially separate from the cultural practices of other nations. Gentiles by the very nature of the Code are excluded. Secondly, on your website you have used the Leviticus quote as a condemnation of homosexuals per se, when in fact (Lev 18:22) is just a condemnation of the active Jewish partner in sexual intercourse. The Hebrew word which means “lie” denotes the partner who inserts his penis, thus Leviticus totally excludes the situation where a gay Gentile (who is excluded from the law) is in a committed same-sex relationship with a Jew and always takes the active role. Thirdly, if you do adopt the Leviticus passage as binding, you are left with the situation where you must acknowledge the other ordinances in the code, or else are you will just be picking the commandments that you like and excluding those you dislike. In this day and age you don’t serious suggest that slavery, animal sacrifice and stoning people to death are permissible? If you do you go against Jesus teaching that condemns many Old Testament practices including stoning for adultery!
The last nail in the coffin of Leviticus’ Biblical validity as a guide for life in the now is found the fact that in the revelation of God through Jesus of Nazareth the Old Law is fulfilled through a new Spiritual Law of Love. According to the teachings of Paul the Old Law is a mode of enslavement, not freedom and should be superseded, although not abolished, by Jesus teaching. Paul says,
“For all those who rely on works of the law are under a curse for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law”. Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law….Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us”. Galatians (3:10-13)
This brings us on to the next supposed ant-gay passage Corinthians (6:9-10, which is rendered according the King James Bible thus:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
The meaning of the passage, when we return to the original Greek is, far from clear, and is open to a number of different interpretations. The Greek word “malakoi”, translated as effeminate or soft in the King James Bible can be rendered in various ways. The New English Version of the Bible for instance translates “malakoi” as “homosexual perversion”, while the New International Version interprets it as “homosexual offenders”, while in contrast earlier versions use the term “Sodomite”. Since the term homosexual was not coined until the 19th century, it would be impossible for this to be an accurate translation. Sodomite is clearly a corruption of the original meaning, because how does the Greek word for soft suddenly becomes sodomite when placed in this context? Effeminate is word which at Paul’s time meant other things apart from homosexual. It referred to a man of loose morals and a debauched lifestyle, of either homosexual or heterosexual orientation and only later became perceived as a specifically homosexual trait.
The traditional meaning the phrase “abusers of themselves with mankind”, is in doubt since the term mankind refers to people generally so is likely to refer man in the plural. To make the interpretation of this phrase more confusing in the past the church interpreted it as a reference to generic interpretation to mutual masturbation, practiced by either sex. If indeed Paul had meant to refer to homosexual relationships generally he would have used the common Greek word “Pederastia”, meaning “boy-love”, or something similar, (since same-sex love was common at the time Paul was writing). Since Paul does not use the term, we must assume that Paul is not discussing homosexuality at all, but is merely talking in general terms about sexual lusts and other vices which lead away from the Kingdom of God. Nothing more specific can be drawn from the passage.
Although the church has had a long tradition of condemnation against homosexuals, when we return to the founding texts any conclusions on the subject are far from conclusive. This we do know, Jesus taught us that the true mark of his discipleship is love and compassion for all, friend or enemy, outsider or insider; to spend time with the prostitutes, the tax-collectors and the sinners our society and give them the healing balm of God’s love . Christian doctrine teaches that we should offer our help, support and comfort to all introspective of their sex, color, creed or moral merit in the eyes of the world .As Paul says, in Christ “there is no longer Greek or Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian and Scythian, slave and free, but Christ is all and in all!” Colossians 3:11. On the contrary to what you say on your website Christianity does teach a radical love for all people. Jesus taught that God showers his love on all human beings as a Father loves his children. He says, “Look at the birds the air, they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?” Matthew 6:26. I find that your website by its very nature completely out of line with a Christian understanding of God. You distort God by the your continual reference to God’s judgment and have little or no understanding of the doctrine of agape, that “God is love” and as Christians we called to love one another as Jesus commands us. If your hearts dwell truly in the God who is revealed in the life of Jesus your ministry would be designed to spread peace, goodwill and compassion, not causing discord and ill feeling. Have you ever contemplated that homosexuals are children of the living Father also? Have you considered that it is not down to you to condemn people to Hell; that the fate of each soul is the hands of God and is therefore unknown and not up for discussion? Please look at yourselves and be guided by God’s kindness and gentleness in all things. Stop judging and hating, instead make your ministry a force for goodness. Thanks for your time,
Yours,
Ben Wood, Theology Student, Leeds University, (England)
Thats well good Ben! I just had a look at their website and, well to say it in the most unconfrontational manner, i was appalled and disgusted that a 'Christian' organisation could write such things about other human beings. I didn't read very much. I didn't want to.
I am a Christian and I firmly believe that if God hates gays so much, He himself would have said something about us through His son. But He didn't. What He did say, was that the sacrifice he made was for all people. God loves everything and everyone He has made. He certainly doesn't hate and there's is plenty to prove that. The whole of the Gospels prove that!
Thanks for writing that letter BTW, it really sets out clearly how its OK to be a Christian and Gay.
Thanks for writing that Ben, it was really interesting, and clarified what I thought about all those arguments we hear time and time again about God hating us, and that we will burn in hell, etc etc.
The comment you made about having to carry out all the other rules put forward in Lev. reminds me of that speech in The West Wing, when the President is talking to a conservative TV Dr. woman:
“I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President,” she replied haughtily. “The Bible does.”
“Yes, it does!” he shouted. “Leviticus 18:22.” The president was just warming up. “I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?”
After a brief moment, he continued: “While thinking about that, can I ask another? My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it OK to call the police?”
Now on a roll, the president steamed on triumphantly. “Here’s one that’s really important, ‘cause we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean, Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
“Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side?
“Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
“Think about those questions, would you? One last thing. While you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the ignorant tight-a** club, in this building when the president stands, nobody sits.”
*note*: this lady "Dr. laura" is supposably this relgious opinionated radio host, one of her topics was on homosexuality...well, this guy wrote her a letter...u just have to read it...its good...u just have to understand that he uses the bible's verses to contradict dr. laura
Friday, January, 31, 2003:
Letter to Dr. Laura
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. For example, when someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
However, I do need some advice from you regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan, Jim This has actually been forward to the Godhatesfags website.
Here is another one that is refering to Bush's attempts to run USA according to scripture law...hence his hblatent homophobic rulings...
"Dear President Bush:
The Presidential Prayer Team is currently urging us to: "Pray for the President as he seeks wisdom on how to legally codify the definition of marriage. Pray that it will be according to Biblical principles. With any forces insisting on variant definitions of marriage, pray that God's Word and His standards will be honored by our government."
Any religious person believes prayer should be balanced by action. So here, in support of the Prayer Team's admirable goals, is a proposed Constitutional Amendment to codify marriage on biblical principles:
A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)
B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines, in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)
C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)
D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden. (Gen24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh10:30)
E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe. (Gen.38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)"
Enough said really.
cx
PS im a Christian myself and it really bugs me when they say that we are wrong. 1st rule of Christianity is don't judge....why do they insist on doing this if they are such good christians? im baffled.
Thanks guys for the positive imput. I got a reply about it from one of the leading guys at the Christian Union, (i put it upon thier forum) and was deeply apolgetic and equally shocked by what he read. I suggested to him that at sometime in the future the LGBT and Christian Union could work together on some kind of joint venture to tackle homophobia. This has been mentioned before by Eevie, a Mehodist member of the society. I didn't get a reply on this subject though as yet.
As u know I aint religious at all, mainly cos I don't believe in settling 2 believe one thing when theres 7 major variations and millions of other ones, i just like to keep an open mind. Working with the christian union would be good, if any of you want to do that i'd b more than happy to run it as an assembly workshop, theres also the inter-faith forum in university where people meet and discuss their religion, maybe this would be a good starting point...
End of the day there is an issue with people looking at u dodgy if ur gay and christian and it needs adressing. Plus if people read the bible closely enuff they'll learn that jesus hung out with a prostitute n kissed men... who's right is it to say that homosexuality and religion don't mix?
__________________
Nic - Union Council LGBT Assembly Chair
Contact me at - lgbt.assembly@leeds.ac.uk / nicturner_85@hotmail.com
" I got a reply about it from one of the leading guys at the Christian Union, (i put it upon thier forum) and was deeply apolgetic and equally shocked by what he [I?] read."
Out of interest, what did he say that shocked you?
Ben said that the person from the CU was shocked by godhatesfags.com as much as himself, not that the CU person said anything shocking?
Is that right Ben?
Good thread too. The CU and LGBT should work together so that the LGBT can make its religous members feel welcome, similarly an aim would be to make other faith based socs to make LGBT members feel welcome just as much.
I have said it on this forum before - people from any faith or religon are welcome to come to LGBT events and we'll happily support and issues you have :) Real religous people know it is LOVE that matters, not the form in which that love comes.
JOHN X
__________________
Johnk
The only freedom that you’ll ever really know
Is written in books from long ago
JohnK wrote: I have said it on this forum before - people from any faith or religon are welcome to come to LGBT events and we'll happily support and issues you have :) Real religous people know it is LOVE that matters, not the form in which that love comes.
JOHN X
Well said John
__________________
Nic - Union Council LGBT Assembly Chair
Contact me at - lgbt.assembly@leeds.ac.uk / nicturner_85@hotmail.com
I completely agree with John and Nic on the above points. It is important for all religious members to feel at home and find a sense of community within the society. I would be interested to hear about the experiences of Joe and Carie's of being gay and reconciling that with a religious faith? I definately think it would be a positive step to work with religious groups in the Union. An idea occurs to me, whether anyone in the society with a faith would be interested in forming a discussion group. This has already had somewhat of a pilot run as it were in Queer Week when we had a discussion on the topic of sexuality and religion. It could provide a safe space for people to talk about their relationship with spirituality and sexuality, maybe as a kind of support network. If anyone likes this idea please post me or send me an e-mail
Think i mentioned it above sumwhere ben but if u want to do something like that and u wanna organise it or run it, I'd b more than happy to run it as an assembly workshop/discussion group or summat
__________________
Nic - Union Council LGBT Assembly Chair
Contact me at - lgbt.assembly@leeds.ac.uk / nicturner_85@hotmail.com
That would be wicked Nic and I'd be more than happy to do it. A discussion group could act as a bridge for dialougue between the LGBT and religious groups in the union. It could also be used as a space where LGBT people can talk about their faith/sexuality in a safe non-judgemental space ie having problems adjusting their faith to their sexuality etc. Please, if anyone is interested and would like to give me some ideas i'd be happy to hear what the consensus is on this issue.
I'm all for it, if u wanna go ahead and do it that'd be gr8...
www.luuonline.com has a list of all the societies and their e-mail addresses and John Schless is chair of the interfaith forum if u wanna contact him for any details about meeting times about the interfaith forum...
__________________
Nic - Union Council LGBT Assembly Chair
Contact me at - lgbt.assembly@leeds.ac.uk / nicturner_85@hotmail.com
Recently the LGBT Society has formulated the idea of an assembly to help the presentation of the issues and concerns of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Trans people in the Union. In our constitution we are committed to working with other societies in a spirit of openness and co-operation, so that we can better understand each other and find unity in diversity. To this end, I have proposed the idea, supported by our society's assembly chair, Nic Turner, of forming a group designed to address the needs of LGBT people who have a faith and to promote co-operation and aid understanding, between religious denominations and the LGBT Society.
I believe such a group could have multiple purposes: 1. As a space for intellectual/theological discussion 2. As a meeting point for LGBT people and different faith communities, so that they can find solidarity with others on a religious path 3. Perhaps, most vitally, a safe, non-judgemental space where people can discuss their spirituality and sexuality freely without feeling that they must put their physical and spiritual lives in separate boxes.
People can ask the questions they need to ask and draw from the inspiration and experiences of others. I feel that such a space has been needed for a long time, since LGBT people of faith have often felt shunned by both the secular Gay Community and their faith community. Such a group could begin to redress this problem. I wondered whether any members of your societies may be interested in joining this project. If so please do not hesitate to e-mail me. Once I know what kind of numbers we might be looking at, I can then get down to the nitty gritty business of discussing with people interested, what kind of group they would like it to be, as well as finding a time and place.