You may have heard that the I.D Card scheme has been aproved after weeks of parliamentary wrangling. This a major defeat for the civil liberties in this country. Some people argue what's the big fuss? We already carry around an I.D card in the form of our NUS Card, Passport or driving licence. It's just one more form of identification to carry. However this ID Card will be different from any card you now hold. It will be connected to a database called the NIR, (National Identity Register)., where all of your personal details will be stored. This will include the unique number that will be issued to you, your fingerprints, a scan of the back of your eye, and your photograph. Your name, address and date of birth will also obviously be stored there.
There will be spaces on this database for your religion, residence status, and many other private and personal facts about you. There is unlimited space for every other details of your life on the NIR database, which can be expanded by the Government with or without further Acts of Parliament.
By itself, you might think that this register is harmless, but you would be wrong to come to this conclusion. This new card will be used to check your identity against your entry in the register in real time, whenever you present it to 'prove who you are'.Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your card can be 'swiped' to check your identity. Each time this happens, a record is made at the NIR of the time and place that the Card was presented.
This means for example, that there will be a government record of every time you withdraw more than £99 at your branch of Nat West, who now demand ID for these transactions. Every time you have to prove that you are over 18, your card will be swiped, and a record made at the NIR. Restaurants and off licenses will demand that your card is swiped so that each receipt shows that they sold alcohol to someone over 18, and that this was proved by the access to the NIR, indemnifying them from prosecution.
Private businesses are going to be given access to the NIR Database. If you want to apply for a job, you will have to present your card for a swipe. If you want to apply for a London Underground Oyster Card, or a supermarket loyalty card, or a driving license you will have to present your ID Card for a swipe. The same goes for getting a telephone line or a mobile phone or an internet account.
Oyster, DVLA, BT and Nectar (for example) all run very detailed databases of their own. They will be allowed access to the NIR, just as every other business will be. This means that each of these entities will be able to store your unique number in their database, and place all your travel, phone records, driving activities and detailed shopping habits under your unique NIR number.
These databases, which can easily fit on a storage device the size of your hand, will be sold to third parties either legally or illegally. It will then be possible for a non governmental entity to create a detailed dossier of all your activities. Certainly, the government will have clandestine access to all of them, meaning that they will have a complete record of all your movements, from how much and when you withdraw from your bank account to what medications you are taking, down to the level of what sort of bread you eat - all accessible via a single unique number in a central database. This is quite a significant leap from a simple ID Card that shows your name and face. Most people do not know that this is the true character and scope of the proposed ID Card.
The Government is going to compel you to enter your details into the NIR and to carry this card. If you and your children want to obtain or renew your passports, you will be forced to have your fingerprints taken and your eyes scanned for the NIR, and an ID Card will be issued to you whether you want
one or not. If you refuse to be fingerprinted and eye canned, you will not be able to get a passport. Your ID Card will, just like your passport, not be your property. The Home Secretary will have the right to revoke or suspend your ID at any time, meaning that you will not be able to withdraw money from your Bank Account, for example, or do anything that requires you to present your government issued ID Card.
The arguments that have been put forwarded in favour of ID Cards can be easily disproved. ID Cards will not stop terrorists; every Spaniard has a compulsory ID Card as did the Madrid Bombers. ID Cards will not 'eliminate benefit fraud', which in any case, is small compared to the astronomical cost of this proposal, which will be measured in billions according to the LSE. This scheme exists solely to exert total surveillance and control over the ordinary free British Citizen, and it will line the pockets of the companies that will create the computer systems at the expense of your freedom, privacy and money.
If you did not know the full scope of the proposed ID Card Scheme before and you are as unsettled as I am at what it really means to you, to this country and its way of life, I urge you to email or photocopy this and give it to your friends and colleagues.
this does sound worrying, where did you find out about this, I wouldn't mind reading up a bit more? I want to know more about it before i start panicking properly.
JesusBitch wrote: This scheme exists solely to exert total surveillance and control over the ordinary free British Citizen
i think thats quite an exaggeration. Im with dave on this one, roll on the ID cards. Its only fighting the inevitable and even if it reduces half of what its trying to do then surely its a good thing?
And if we live in a big brother state at least davina will be with us at the live eviction show...
"so what if someone knows what you're doing day to day. if you ain't doing anything wrong why does it matter?"
I'm with Nick on this one, I strongly disagree with I.D cards. I personally think that the idea that if your not doing anything wrong is a rather nieve. In a Democracy everyone has the right to a private life, everyone has the human right to have their privacy protected, would you really want the government tracking you all of the time? Also the definition of not doing anything wrong has become so diluted under the influence of the government's terror laws. Terrorism in the 2000 Act has been defined in among other things as, " the use or threat is designed to influence the government", thus peaceful protesters could be seen as terrorists and if I do not wish to sign up to the I.D Card scheme I will be considered a terrorist and might be held under the anit-terror laws. Another definition of terrorism found in the act is "the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause".- This would make Gandhi and Martin Luther King terrorists under the act. So not only is the government intent on tracking you, you may find that you are on the wrong side of the law just be resisting the government in a peaceful democratic way.
The government have been keen to use the ant-terror laws of late to throw an old peace activist out of the Labour party conference for shouting "rubbish" at Jack Straw. It's a sad when disagreeing with the government is a crime.This shows the government not only use their powers irresponsibly but use to silence opposition and the proper working workings of a free, open, democratic society. What makes anyone on here think that they will use the I.D database responsibily? Why should they? It is very easy under broard definitions provided to crimalise ordinary people for doing nothing any sane person would consider terrorism. I.D cards are another way the government can push citizens into line.
"What makes anyone on here think that they will use the I.D database responsibily?"
what makes you think they will use it irresponsibly? maybe i'm being a bit naive. or maybe some people are just far too cynical.
so what if the database tells people when i buy alcohol, when i go to the bank or where i shop. i'm not really worried about people knowing what kind of bread i buy.
Maybe little stuff like that doesn't both you but what happens when it comes to protesting against the government? Do you think it's right to be arrested because you do so? Is it a crime to hold the government to account? Do you think that protesting against the government is a crime? Do you think you have the right to keep your sexual orienation private if you wish? Do you think it's right for the government to intrude on your private life in this way?
at the end of the day, we are a democracy. despite voter apathy, most people tend to have some form of opinion on at least one policy or stand point the government takes. and there are differences in stand points and opinions between political parties, otherwise there would be no different parties. i can't really see a large percentage of mp's being arrested for being part of an opposition party, and i can't see mass numbers being arrested for expressing opinion against the government. otherwise that government would eventually lose power if they lost the support of voters. so why would possessing an ID card change this? there's a difference between protesting against government policy and inciting violence against people and threatening people's safety. despite what some people may think, i'm sure the government and law enforcement officials can distinguish between the two.
as for my sexual orientation, i don't care about the government knowing. so they know i'm gay/bi/straight/whatever, does it matter? i can't see any government officials coming to my door to discuss it with me. if the 60million people in the country are on the database, i'm just gonna be a statistic.
but i don't think anyone is going to win this debate though. clearly you are strongly against ID cards. the arguements you give are that you don't want the government knowing XYZ about you, so you don't want an ID card. i don't care about them knowing.
I agree with Mike.. Don't forget that big companies all hold stupid amounts of information about us already, Nectar know as much about some people's shopping habits as their banks do, and they make big money out of analysing and passing on the data they pick up everytime you hand over your card in a shop. It's not like we aren't all being watched already, I don't see what difference an ID card will make...
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I reserve... I reserve... I have a reservation... I HAVE a reservation.. What do you mean its not in the computer?
I also have to agree that ID cards won't change much from what goes on already. Banks more or less have the power to monitor our daily lives already by keeping a record of purchases, and other companies list every other detail about us anyway.
And on the demoncracy side of things.... the government has lost sight of that already... just look at the Iraq war and the protests before that to see how thats not working. Maybe we should protest violently like our French cousins across the waters... it seems to work for them!
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Well, I'd love to stay and chat, but you're a total bitch.
I might possibly go and buy a box set of McGuiver, 50 bottles of bleach, some ammonium, some paper clips, some fuse wire, a balaclava, a copy of the Koran (spelt wrong of course), a turban, some robes and the little book of calm. Then go home and see how long it takes for the government to show up.
Failing that i will buy tropicana.
Sort of seriously though... we're a very paranoid nation and ID cards are another sign of that... but what the hey... at least within 50 years when our lives are controlled by laser beams under a Neo-Nazi regime we can say we were there! And against the whole thing anyway!
Of course, if people actually bothered to vote then they'd be in a slightly better position to complain about what the government get up to. Bring on the Headingly Riots, the name has a nice ring to it, Thai Dave to bring the party poppers...
-- Edited by Adam at 13:48, 2006-04-19
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I reserve... I reserve... I have a reservation... I HAVE a reservation.. What do you mean its not in the computer?
Party poppers hey? Voting! there's a point! Voter ambivalence of course fuels BNP and UKIP votes and all that jazz... but at the end of the day, with Blair's preoccupation with world politics and Cameron the Chameleon's (did anyone see the broadcast?) party antics there's no shock that these scum of the earth f*cking wankers continually increase their power.
Sod ID cards if they cost money, spend it on education, spend it on hospitals, but give us a government that protect victims more than murderers, that care about domestic politics more than international politics. Instead of being worried about our completely inept and useless country, spending money on a new nuke programme and ID cards why don't our government do something commendable that will get people out voting for them? ID Cards are a stupid idea... but they are a stupid idea for a nation of paranoid people who NEED that kind of thing to fail SAFE.
Fixing our health system, our education system, working within the country for self improvement surely is more commendable than ID Cards. But, if ID cards are deemed necessary, then we'll go along with that, but i personally will give them no credit whatsoever for it, because it doesn't help us as a nation, we don't grow.
Nectar cards, research, civil liberties threatened and all that bollocks. Take a look around the world.... isn't this all a bit hypocritically self interested. Take a look at yourself. Do you drink fairtrade tea and eat nestle chocolate? Do you get your ideas from the BBC World Service?
In any case, the Lords voted for a majority of 35 to keep the scheme voluntary, and I honestly think the days of a compulsory ID card are quite a few years off.
I don't see how an ID card is any different from CRB checks or credit checks. All it does is keep the information held by banks, the internet, agencies such as the NHS or department of Social Security etc. in one place and make it easier to access. If the government wanted to find out the information on every aspect of your life right now, they could easily do it, though it would just take them longer to collate the information.
There are 60 million of us in the UK. I doubt anyone's going to knock on our door and arrest us for taking part in a demonstration 10 years ago.
I'm more angry about David Cameron's 'vote blue, go green' policy than ID cards, to tell you the truth. Labour have been talking about ID cards since 2002 if not earlier, so it's really nothing we've not heard about before.
ChallengeTheMighty wrote: at the end of the day, we are a democracy. despite voter apathy, most people tend to have some form of opinion on at least one policy or stand point the government takes. and there are differences in stand points and opinions between political parties, otherwise there would be no different parties. i can't really see a large percentage of mp's being arrested for being part of an opposition party, and i can't see mass numbers being arrested for expressing opinion against the government. otherwise that government would eventually lose power if they lost the support of voters. so why would possessing an ID card change this? there's a difference between protesting against government policy and inciting violence against people and threatening people's safety. despite what some people may think, i'm sure the government and law enforcement officials can distinguish between the two.
as for my sexual orientation, i don't care about the government knowing. so they know i'm gay/bi/straight/whatever, does it matter? i can't see any government officials coming to my door to discuss it with me. if the 60million people in the country are on the database, i'm just gonna be a statistic.
but i don't think anyone is going to win this debate though. clearly you are strongly against ID cards. the arguements you give are that you don't want the government knowing XYZ about you, so you don't want an ID card. i don't care about them knowing.
this isn't directed at you mike, more like an "invisible somebody"...
well *I* for one DO care about who knows my sexuality, because it is MY right to let others know, not some bank, or the government. I care because if history has taught us anything, then it is that sometimes the state can know TOO much about you, and THAT is just as dangerous as not knowing you at all. has nobody learnt anything from Lenin, Hitler, Tito, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-Tung? Salazar the dictator in portugal who tried to hunt my family down, and he was supposed to FREE his people - instead he imprisoned them, terrorised them, and my family fled to Germany. I remember the terror of growing up in Londonderry in Northern Ireland, and the days of the She-Whore Baroness O'Cathain. i remember living in Honk-Kong when Tianneman Square happened. I remember the stories of all the gay men and women who fled to Hong-Kong, and the infamous "3 o'clock knock" from the secret police that left many of them nothing but a memory in their families' heads.
I'm happy to have my face on a card, and my name, and contact details. Anything else they have no right to know, in my opinion. since when did the state get the right to know every single detail of my life? and if you think the state doesn't have an in-depth file on you, i'm glad you're happy in your ignorance, because they DO.
we live in one of the only countries in the world in which it is both LEGAL and a guaranteed RIGHT to be with and legally co- habit with a same-sex partner. we all owe it to ourselves and the rest of the LGBT people in the world in Sudan, Ethipoia, America, China, Iran, Pakistan, India, Turkey, Iraq, Russia, and so many other places, to insure that those rights are not abused by anybody - including the state, and especially in the service of so-called "security". if you don't, i don't think you can honestly say you ever deserved those rights in the first place.
as the Ancient Greek maxim goes, "All Things In Moderation"...
DEATH TO ID CARDS!!
*polemic over*
lol, sorry, i just read all that back, and it's heavy-handed, but i still agree~.
somebody disagree with me quick!!!
sash xxx
-- Edited by chemicalfears at 16:25, 2006-04-20
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Three things that mark the Good Man: Truth, Honour and Love
thaidave wrote: I might possibly go and buy a box set of McGuiver, 50 bottles of bleach, some ammonium, some paper clips, some fuse wire, a balaclava, a copy of the Koran (spelt wrong of course), a turban,
Your post's and opinions are pertinenant and I find myself agreeing with you very much. But i found this funny :) Turbans AND korans.....! And here was me thinking you were a buddhist not a part time Sikh and a part time Muslim :)
lol
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Johnk
The only freedom that you’ll ever really know
Is written in books from long ago
chemicalfears wrote: well *I* for one DO care about who knows my sexuality, because it is MY right to let others know, not some bank, or the government.
I agree with that point.
I'm in two minds about declaring my sexuality. Firstly, I think nobody should have the right to know my sexuality, however I also feel that if I don't tell people my sexuality, they'll assume I'm heterosexual. (Especially as I have a boyfriend!) If we all keep our sexualities hidden, how will anyone ever know we exist? Maybe the ideal situation in equal rights is a time where it won't even be an issue.
By the way, where did you get the information that sexual orientation and religion would be included on the cards, Ben? I've read Home Office reports that no record would be kept of race, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, political affilitations or the like. All they contain is name, any previous names, national insurance number, passport number, driving licence number, current address, previous addresses, gender, date of birth, a fingerprint or iris/facial scan. Basically, it's virtually identical to a biometric passport. And having worked for the DVLA, there are definite benefits to the scheme. Say you want to change your name on your driving licence, or apply for a photocard driving licence. Before, you'd have to fill out forms, enclose hard copies of passports of marriage/birth certificates, and send it all down to Swansea to wait weeks for it. With an ID card, you could just change your name on it, and they'd have proof of your identification with one swipe. I've worked in the NHS, too, and fraudulant use of healthcare services is rife. All people need to do to register with a GP is show a passport from their country of origin, and a letter that says they're staying here (for example from a university or college. These are very, very easy to fake and I have seen them many times.) ID cards would cut this down dramatically. (I'm sure someone will try to fake ID cards, but considering how bad fake driving licences and passports I've seen are, I'm not holding my breath this will be a problem.)
Even as a Geography student, I'm shocked at how easily I can gain access to 2001 Census data. If anyone goes to the Government Statistics site, they can find similar information. With a few clicks of a mouse and a bit of jiggling data about in a spreadsheet package, I can find out the socioeconomic class, occupations, methods of transport to and from work, marital status, house prices, religion etc. of people living in the same street as me. Granted, I myself couldn't find out data about an individual person, but the data is already there, and completely accessible to anyone with a set of Census data. And giving data to the census every decade is mandatory, before you ask. If anyone abstains, you can be fined or worse. Income and sexuality aren't currently included, nor are political beliefs, but this could easily be incorporated in the future, and none of us are likely to have any say over the formation of the 2011 census. So there.
I don't agree with the scheme entirely, but think that some people are blowing it way out of proportion. Especially Liberal Democrats and Daily Mail readers. (Which means Mike is in the minority!!)
JohnK wrote: thaidave wrote: I might possibly go and buy a box set of McGuiver, 50 bottles of bleach, some ammonium, some paper clips, some fuse wire, a balaclava, a copy of the Koran (spelt wrong of course), a turban,
Your post's and opinions are pertinenant and I find myself agreeing with you very much. But i found this funny :) Turbans AND korans.....! And here was me thinking you were a buddhist not a part time Sikh and a part time Muslim :)
lol
hey john...sorry to be so pedantic, but i thought i'd let u know that in my research on koranic texts concerning proper dress, turbans are originally prescribed by Muhammad (pbuh) as proper dress for a good muslim, attested to in the Hadith (sayings and treatises attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) ) as well, several times. though of course u can wear a skull cap as well it says. as most muslim men do. lol.
buddhists in turbans reading the Guru Granth Sahib...i'd pay good money to see that!!!
after having re-read posts and stuff, i change my mind...not "death to i.d. cards" but there's defo some stuff i don't want included on there, like religious and political beliefs, as well as sexual orientation.
i agree with alice, i worked for the nhs last summer, and a company the summer before where i had access to all kinds of social security data...it is terribly easy to find out and misuse lots of details about a particular person...
here's hoping my i.d. card doesn't have one of my "dodgy day" photos on it, or i'll be quickly lumped in with al-qaeda, lol...
JohnK wrote: thaidave wrote: I might possibly go and buy a box set of McGuiver, 50 bottles of bleach, some ammonium, some paper clips, some fuse wire, a balaclava, a copy of the Koran (spelt wrong of course), a turban,
Your post's and opinions are pertinenant and I find myself agreeing with you very much. But i found this funny :) Turbans AND korans.....! And here was me thinking you were a buddhist not a part time Sikh and a part time Muslim :)
lol
national prejudice 101 for the Brits we're not very scared of monks!
hey john...sorry to be so pedantic, but i thought i'd let u know that in my research on koranic texts concerning proper dress, turbans are originally prescribed by Muhammad (pbuh) as proper dress for a good muslim, attested to in the Hadith (sayings and treatises attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) ) as well, several times. though of course u can wear a skull cap as well it says. as most muslim men do. lol.
buddhists in turbans reading the Guru Granth Sahib...i'd pay good money to see that!!!
lol
sash xxx
This might just be yet more pedantic, but if Dave was going to buy a turban now it would most definitely be Sikh, no matter it's religous origins, a turban, that is, to protect the long un-cut hair of a sikh man. So ner to you poo face!
I feel so mature.
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Johnk
The only freedom that you’ll ever really know
Is written in books from long ago
incidently if you apply for a new biomet passport apparently you dont need an id card one point is they ask me any of the followin on the sign up form im refusing 1 sexuality 2 religion 3 race 4 mothers maiden name as i cant fit it on the card
hey alice, hopefully going to be back in blighty some time in june...HOPEFULLY!!! i´m sure i can get mi5 to lift the ban, i have so many ways to help them with their pesky terrorist problems (who think this post is being monitored and catalogued by mi5, raise ure hands! lol)
john: NER NER NER-NER NER! : P lol
pete: nice one
chris: east european is good. ja mam dve kufry, lol.
lalala...portugal is nicer than germany : ( sasha wanna be back in portugal!
me xxx
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Three things that mark the Good Man: Truth, Honour and Love
Alice, I was having the same thought as you... will they make people tell what their sexuality is for the ID cards? Or does Ben mean that they'll guess by all the money we [sic] spend at Queen's Court? :oP
I'm all for ID cards, although the amounts of information they are going to collect is scary... still, I agree with Mike... with such a big population, I don't think every single person's ID is going to be scrutinised, unless under suspicion. And if under suspicion because of political opposition, well, then we'll have to start parading to vindicate a bit of democracy in this country. At the moment, it seems all this worrying is rather exaggerated, and possibly a bit bombastic. Is it really going to be so tragic?!
Off to bed. This thread has left me feeling more exhausted than I did before logging on. :oP
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'I've discovered the secret of life. A lot of hard work, a lot of sense of humor, a lot of joy and a whole lot of tra la la.' Kay Thompson
national prejudice 101 for the Brits 
we're not very scared of monks!
