chemicalfears wrote: Depends where you look; Achilles and Patroclus, Zeus and Ganymede, Hadrian and Antinous, Alexander and Hephaestion...though admittedly, those examples are almost all 1000 years old...
sorry to be pedantic but none of those are really relationships so to speak. achilles and patroclus as well as alexander and hephaestion were both sexual flings between friends at a time when there were no real labels. they were all married with sprogs (excpet for achilles i think, who still ****ed many a wench) so not really a good template for stable relationship. Zeus was married to hera and havent ever heard of any sodomy on his part, although he did get around (let us remember these are ancient god we're talking about, so again, not really a viable template) and i dunno who hadrian and antinous are but by their names i'm guessing they are classical characters or greco-romans so the same would apply to them as to achilles/patroclus/alexander/hephy really
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There's gotta be more to life, than just not every temporary high to satisfy me. Cause the more that I, tripping up thinking there must be more to life
Totally. Gay relationships are possibly the only genuinely good thing to come from the label. Pre twentieth-century, homosexuality was seen largely as pederasty; all those captains and cabin boys - and Oscar Wilde did nothing to dispel the myth. Before (what?) the 1930s, gay guys were just straights gone a trifle 'queer' (hence the joyous phrase).
Even today, the few actively publicised gay couples are heavily stereotyped (Colin and Justin). We have soo long to go before there are any decent gay role models, let alone couples. Let's just be grateful for Will Young.
Actually, they WERE relationships, though agreed, not any we would recognise officially today (cos pederasty has a different meaning now)...Achilles and Patroclus were devoted to each other their entire lives until patroclus was killed at Troy, and Achilles went mad in his grief for him, slaughtering his killer Hector out of revenge, and using many boats to provide the wood for the funeral pyre...that is strong commitment to me, not to mention that they were buried together, which is an even stronger sign of devotion.
Zeus is well renowned for having many a fling with shepherd boys such as Ganymede, that is true, but to elevate him to Olympus, to be the Cup Bearer of the Gods? No higher honour could be given to a mortal from a god!
Pan as well was known to have many relationships with shepherd boys, as well as flings.
Hadrian was an emperor of Rome who was so in love with the young Antinous that he devoted almost his every waking moment to him (a fact criticised in classical texts by detractors who disliked their relationship and thought it something of a stain on Romeīs reputation and Hadrianīs ability to run the empire). Before the greedy christians decided to overthrow Rome and wipe them out, Hadrian had statues and temples built throughout the entire empire once Antinous died in the Nile (donīt know if he was pushed, suicided, or just fell in). A temple to Antinous was even found in Hadrianīs private Villa, the only surviving, intact temple and statuary to Antinous. Deifying your lover - THAT is love.
Alexander and Hephaestion - Alexander repeatedly denied his familyīs requests to marry, out of love for Hephaestion, only acceding to these wishes in later years. Hephaestion went EVERYWHERE with him, and he was still by his side after marrying. Like Achilles, Alexander went partially mad when Hephaestion died, dying himself only a couple of months later, possibly out of grief, possibly because of poisoning. They even made a pilgrimage to Achilles and Patroclusīgraves, dancing round them naked (attributed to Pindar, I think this is) to honour the love that they shared.
The Athenians Harmonius and Aristogeiton are credited by classical scholars with overthrowing the tyrant Hyppias and establishing democracy, because their love was so strong, it could even bring down a tyrant. Thucydides says bluntly that Aristogeiton "was his [Harmodiusī] lover and possessed him."
Bein a sort of student of classical mythology, I think itīs wrong to say they "were just sexual flings". These are people who were iconised, their relationships - by whatever name - reified and highly prized by honest, decent, socially acceptable men. They were Heroes, and many men sought what these heroes and Gods had.
All in all, it wasnīt just "philia", it was something more. Look up "erastes" and "eromenos", or even the greek "gymnasia"...gay love by any other name, hasnīt changed so much!
Sash xxx
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Three things that mark the Good Man: Truth, Honour and Love
Gilgamesh and Enkidu. The first story ever to be recorded (as far as we know). Well the idea of courtesy love came around Renaissance to Europe n'est-pas? Obviously, they didn't have any Jane Green or Jane Austen during that time, and the story of Gilgamesh doesn't waste pages on how romantically in love they were, but they were a couple (bortherly love?) nevertheless.
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I've got a sweet poison cake, gonnabe high Take me higher higher I've got a sweet creature song, It's a lemon, lemon lemon & I scream
indie_hunk wrote: Gilgamesh and Enkidu. The first story ever to be recorded (as far as we know). Well the idea of courtesy love came around Renaissance to Europe n'est-pas? Obviously, they didn't have any Jane Green or Jane Austen during that time, and the story of Gilgamesh doesn't waste pages on how romantically in love they were, but they were a couple (bortherly love?) nevertheless.
points for knowing about ancient sumerian queerbos, cory!!! : D