Thought i'd start a friendly debate going to stop our brains turning to mush over summer, cos i think we all like a bit of controversy sometimes, and cos i need something to do other than watch trisha and eat crackers.
main question is:
Does it matter 'why' a person identifies with a particular sexuality? e.g. is it important to discover if there is a 'gay gene'?
i think it is important to know why, but i donīt think people necessarily should know HOW...ie, i was born gay is the WHY, but the genetics is the HOW...i think sexuality might be just one of the few areas in which ignorance might be bliss??
sash xx
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I think we should ask ! It can make up a huge part of your life which are different for different people. But at the end of the day its dicussed alot and theres loads a theories. Personally i think its genetic but needs a trigger. but i think your sexual orientation is for a reason, in my opinion its natural selection a way that the population should be kept lower as you can't make babies ( this is the point were most ppl laugh). I think its natural and ppl have always been gay. Science studies everything else about the evolution of man down to why we like certain foods so why not!!!!
x
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Hello! could put something witty but i can't think of one!
but what if it turns out like in x-men 3 when they find a cure for the mutant gene.
Some mutants wanted it and some didn't and so there was lots of fighting. And the bird boy's dad tried to give him the cure even tho bird boy didn't actually really want it cos obviously it's well cool to be able to fly.
so some people might want the cure or feel pressured into it but some people would be dead against it there might be a big gay war and it would be really bad. Though not as bad as in the film due to the lack of super powers... but probably lots of bitch slapping which isn't nice so in conclusion i think that they shouldn't find the scientific cause of sexuality.
It is always beneficial to understand how our mind works and biological nature of our behaviour. Although even if scientists find evidence that gayness is 100% biological, I don't think discrimination will end. Science has aided acceptance of homosexuality and transsexuals in overall population, but people who discriminate do so cuz they want to. I mean I have met some gays who discriminate against transsexuals.
On a sidenote, I just saw the episode where Ellen comes out. It is so 90s and no longer will TV shows will have episode centered on coming out, because it became so common-place. It is good to now how much homosexuality has been accepted within the past decade.
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I think if they discover the reason for homosexuality they should make the whole world gay and make test tube babies like in Brave New World! Dystopia my arse
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Well, I'd love to stay and chat, but you're a total bitch.
On a sidenote, I just saw the episode where Ellen comes out. It is so 90s and no longer will TV shows will have episode centered on coming out, because it became so common-place.
dunno bout that. comings out like todd in corrie have a full and reckon most programmes would donate a fair bit of time to it. not because we havent moved on, but beause its a big thing.
lucy lichenstein wrote: but what if it turns out like in x-men 3 when they find a cure for the mutant gene.
Some mutants wanted it and some didn't and so there was lots of fighting. And the bird boy's dad tried to give him the cure even tho bird boy didn't actually really want it cos obviously it's well cool to be able to fly.
so some people might want the cure or feel pressured into it but some people would be dead against it there might be a big gay war and it would be really bad. Though not as bad as in the film due to the lack of super powers... but probably lots of bitch slapping which isn't nice so in conclusion i think that they shouldn't find the scientific cause of sexuality.
I for one would be willing to pick up a gun if it ever came to a war on homoness...and i agree: i donīt want a scientific explanation, I want equality, for my brother, my sister, my people and me! (god bless nina simone)
sash xxx
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the whole point of life is to understand more about the world, if a CURE is found it would be given in the womb and therefor the child would not grow up gay and therefore not feel cheated of a homosexulay life, the reason why we would be apposed too it is becuase we are gay and therefore know there is no problem in being so. Personaly i dont think a cure will be found so there is no worry
MrDarcy wrote: the whole point of life is to understand more about the world, if a CURE is found it would be given in the womb and therefor the child would not grow up gay and therefore not feel cheated of a homosexulay life, the reason why we would be apposed too it is becuase we are gay and therefore know there is no problem in being so. Personaly i dont think a cure will be found so there is no worry
not sure about that "point of life" thing...i think understanding the world is the point for SOME people (it used to be the point of my life, but breakdowns have a way of changing oneīs priorities), but most people from what iīve seen just wanna be content to get on with actually LIVING it...
as for the "cure" thing, well...sooner or later evolution would probably throw up a block to this "cure" (assuming the species hasnīt become extinct), or just work around it, much like viruses do with medications...
...however, this all assumes that homoness is genetic, which itīs still possible it might not be, but not in my opinion ; )
sash xxx
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scarymary wrote: oh my god that terrifies me.... imagine if you were the one who slipped through the net and were the only gay in the world.... how lonely
the true Only Gay In The Village...maybe if you were the One and Only True Gay and went around talking in public about it, a sudden revolution would happen in peopleīs brains and a new Order of Gays would suddenly feel something "click" inside...the Coming of the Gay Messiah of which Rufus Wainwright sang!! lol
sash (still obsessed with X-Men) xxx
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scarymary wrote: oh my god that terrifies me.... imagine if you were the one who slipped through the net and were the only gay in the world.... how lonely
as long as u have alcohol people can always be persuaded 2 try it.
Personally 4 me it wasn't a choice, it was sumthing that just happened 2 choose me. Science can b bluddy annoying when it comes up with theories etc about homosexuality, but it is nice 2 know where it comes from i guess.
the whole argument bout it ending discrimination, it wont really but it gives more ground to silence ppl who critisise LGBT people by sayin they chose it etc.
as for the finding its genetic n developing a cure for it... lets put it this way, race is genetic & no-ones found/developed a 'cure' for that. Altho saying that sum idiot probably would try 2 develop a cure 4 it.
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Nic // LGBT Society Events Officer 05/06 // LGBT Assembly Chair 05/06 - NUS LGBT Society of the year 2006(winners) //
LUU honarary life member - Awarded 2006 // LGBT Assembly Mentor 2006 -Onwards.
Contact me at nicturner_85@hotmail.com
I think we need to break down the nature/nurture binary. If it is a recurring gene, why is there such a diversity in gay feelings?
I don't think science is doing a very good job of defining homosexual behaviours in the first place, let alone determining how they might come about.
Is it only same sex desire? How attracted do you have to be? Can gender-identification be taken into account?
I'm with Freud. I think, in infancy, a child identifies with the gender behaviours it witnesses either from parents, teachers or TV and sometimes an infant copies the gender behaviour of the opposite sex. This would explain the variation of feeling amongst gays (and straights), as this could happen to different degrees at different times of development.
There is a distinct possibility of a predisposition to this either from genes or hormone exposure in the womb, but I doubt a full-blown innate behaviour purely from genes.
Theres never enough orange anything in any sweets... ya know fruit gums, fruit pastilles, skittles, midget gems. I think theres a big conspiracy goin on where they r tryin 2 deprive us of orange sweets
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Nic // LGBT Society Events Officer 05/06 // LGBT Assembly Chair 05/06 - NUS LGBT Society of the year 2006(winners) //
LUU honarary life member - Awarded 2006 // LGBT Assembly Mentor 2006 -Onwards.
Contact me at nicturner_85@hotmail.com
Breconboy wrote: I think we need to break down the nature/nurture binary. If it is a recurring gene, why is there such a diversity in gay feelings?
I don't think science is doing a very good job of defining homosexual behaviours in the first place, let alone determining how they might come about.
Is it only same sex desire? How attracted do you have to be? Can gender-identification be taken into account?
I'm with Freud. I think, in infancy, a child identifies with the gender behaviours it witnesses either from parents, teachers or TV and sometimes an infant copies the gender behaviour of the opposite sex. This would explain the variation of feeling amongst gays (and straights), as this could happen to different degrees at different times of development.
There is a distinct possibility of a predisposition to this either from genes or hormone exposure in the womb, but I doubt a full-blown innate behaviour purely from genes.
That's my 2ps worth, anyway.
V. xxx
see i think that whole freudian thing is a big bunch of bull. iīm gay yes, my father was away a fair bit when i was a child, yes, but am I a big queen? no. am i innately effeminate? no.
well, not unless you get me in a bad mood.
sash xxx
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I suppose it depends how far down the line you want to go. I think most practitioners have moved beyond his original theories. Don't forget his research centred on a very small number of patients and a large amount of self-analysis.
However, I think Breconboy is right. So much of our behaviour patterns are formed in early infancy and we can examine them without confining ourselves to the antiquated strictures of Oedipus and Electra.
The potential for innate predisposition effecting (but not entirely determining) our development seems the only explanation for the consistant 10% but the huge variety of expereince within that number.
Was having this debate with a frind the other day on whether homosexuality was genetic or psychological.
I actually came down more on the psychological side but still believe that it is innate. I believe it is part of the soul which is the core of who we are, have been and will be. Part of the mysteries of the universe like consciousness itself.
i think its both.... cos its not really something u actively choose & there r people who've been married had families n been unhappy cos they knew summat wer up n came out. So there's gotta b summat there in the first place anyway & its triggered by certain psychological stuff
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Nic // LGBT Society Events Officer 05/06 // LGBT Assembly Chair 05/06 - NUS LGBT Society of the year 2006(winners) //
LUU honarary life member - Awarded 2006 // LGBT Assembly Mentor 2006 -Onwards.
Contact me at nicturner_85@hotmail.com
Science, of course, has the right (I'd probably be tempted to say "the obligation") to find an explanation for all natural phenomena, and homosexuality is one of them. But this, of course, shouldn't invalidate the fact that homosexuals should be respected, with or without a scientific explanation of homosexuality.
As for a "cure"... what do we need to be cured from?
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'I've discovered the secret of life. A lot of hard work, a lot of sense of humor, a lot of joy and a whole lot of tra la la.' Kay Thompson
News about a gay bomb. Ridiculous yet funny. Should sell it outside of clubs
"The Pentagon briefly looked into making a weapon that would render enemy troops sexually attracted to one another, according to an official document uncovered by a watchdog group that monitors research into biological and chemical weapons."
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I've got a sweet poison cake, gonnabe high Take me higher higher I've got a sweet creature song, It's a lemon, lemon lemon & I scream
AlbyFC wrote: Science, of course, has the right (I'd probably be tempted to say "the obligation") to find an explanation for all natural phenomena, and homosexuality is one of them. But this, of course, shouldn't invalidate the fact that homosexuals should be respected, with or without a scientific explanation of homosexuality.
Sorry alby, but itīs exactly this kind of statement that sends shivers up my spine, and says "remember the children tortured and murdered by joseph mengele, the bombs that poisoned Hiroshima and Nagasaki". Who says science has any obligation? More importantly, who gives science a right to anything? I do not think anybody can say in all conscience that science has a "right" to anything, the same as religion.
Donīt get me wrong, iīm no technophobe. I do however believe in being cautious with science and technology, because of precedents.
Maybe itīs just my tiny little human soul, saying..
"I donīt want to be 'explained away' by a world of scientists who donīt have the tiniest clue who i am!".
sash xxx
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Three things that mark the Good Man: Truth, Honour and Love
AlbyFC wrote: Science, of course, has the right (I'd probably be tempted to say "the obligation") to find an explanation for all natural phenomena, and homosexuality is one of them. But this, of course, shouldn't invalidate the fact that homosexuals should be respected, with or without a scientific explanation of homosexuality.
Sorry alby, but itīs exactly this kind of statement that sends shivers up my spine, and says "remember the children tortured and murdered by joseph mengele, the bombs that poisoned Hiroshima and Nagasaki". Who says science has any obligation? More importantly, who gives science a right to anything? I do not think anybody can say in all conscience that science has a "right" to anything, the same as religion.
Donīt get me wrong, iīm no technophobe. I do however believe in being cautious with science and technology, because of precedents.
Maybe itīs just my tiny little human soul, saying..
"I donīt want to be 'explained away' by a world of scientists who donīt have the tiniest clue who i am!".
sash xxx
Maybe you caught the dark end of my statement, Sash. ;o) I don't mean to say we should be dissected or put into scrutiny, or explained away only in scientific terms. Does anybody actually believe we're just machines? As long as there are scientists with curiosity for things, science will find its way, even trespassing prohibitions. But as long as human beings remain human, we'll always be as mysterious and hard to explain away as we've always been. Cause we're not machines: we're wonderfully complex living beings.
If a scientist can point at and explain the most accurate origin of homosexuality I'll say "fine", but I will still be me. M'kay? ;o)
xxx
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'I've discovered the secret of life. A lot of hard work, a lot of sense of humor, a lot of joy and a whole lot of tra la la.' Kay Thompson
They're called the Pendle witches...hence often seein a black witch on a broom across the lancashire rose...
There was a huge witch hunt, and women suspected to be witches were questioned, if found guilty, killed, and if they denied it, they were drowned to see if they lived, (apparently you cant drown a witch). If you lived, you were a witch, and killed anyway!!
Saw that Most Haunted live (Dom bought the box set) t'was brilliant n u learn about UK history at the same time. Who dares to call it a trashy programme now eh??
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Nic // LGBT Society Events Officer 05/06 // LGBT Assembly Chair 05/06 - NUS LGBT Society of the year 2006(winners) //
LUU honarary life member - Awarded 2006 // LGBT Assembly Mentor 2006 -Onwards.
Contact me at nicturner_85@hotmail.com
Lol its ok. It its trash tv at its best, nothing beats Yvette Fielding gettin **** scared about bugger all, altho me n Dom love the make up lady Cath, anyone who'll wet themsleves on live telly n admit it is a legend.
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Nic // LGBT Society Events Officer 05/06 // LGBT Assembly Chair 05/06 - NUS LGBT Society of the year 2006(winners) //
LUU honarary life member - Awarded 2006 // LGBT Assembly Mentor 2006 -Onwards.
Contact me at nicturner_85@hotmail.com
the only cure for homosexuality is to stop talking about it: to stop differentiating. if, hypothetically, left-handed people began to be marginalised in a similar way, this would give way to a 'lefty' culture, and once a social stigma has a name, society finds it nigh on impossible to not differentiate.
when i can walk down the street holding hands with my boyfriend, and forget that i am 'gay', and when this difference is not consciously noticed by anyone else, homosexuality will cease to exist. we will just be a couple.
though this will never happen. there are millennia of gay history behind homosexual identities, and the most i can hope for is a greater respect for our lives and our relationships. if there were a specific, non-related objective to research into finding a gay gene, i might just be convinced, but i think in this case it's simple curiosity. i can only see that doing more harm than good.
anyhow today i am one step closer to achieving equality-- my left-handed cheque book arrived!!
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burn down our home, RAPE OUR DEAD MOUTHS. Just as long as I don't have to hear anymore of your disgusting babble
Finding out the genetics perhaps but beware of the 'finding a cure' aspect. Finding a cure for homosexuality suggests that it is a disease and this is simply not the case. By all means it is a deviation from the social norm but who is to say it is not natural for humans to be sexually active in such a way. Was anyone there at the dawn of the race cus i sure as hell wasn't?! And weren't the Greeks and Romans a bit frisky in that department?
Either way, i do not feel like a disease and i should hope that no one else does either. So as for finding out the genetics, which would basically lead to a so called 'cure', i just don't feel it is worth it. Things are created the way they are for a reason.
So we try to prevent children being born disabled to improve their standard of life, are we going to start seeing gayness as some sort of disability? what about ethnicity, that may as well be a disability in the bible belts of america, it doesn't mean that if there was a 'cure' we'd start turning everyone a certain colour?
It would be boring if we were all the same with the same characterics. People will always try and pick something out to be prejudice about would knowing why we are gay/bi/trans make any difference? We know about xx & xy genes but sexism still occurs and we know about melanin but racism still occurs. Who cares why we are like this? I think it adds a bit of variety to life.
Long answer: Nope. A lot of emphasis is made on it 'not being a choice' but frankly, even if it were a choice, it's not a wrong or a harmful one. Now, I'm generally of the opinion that science is a positive force and that it's good to try and find out as much as possible. I wouldn't stop people discovering how to, say, synthesise dangerous germs in a lab, and I wouldn't stop them from finding out whatever gene or quirk of brain structure leads to homosexuality, if such a thing exists. It's convincing society to see it as something as harmless as left-handedness or red hair that's important, really. If they see it as an everyday sort of thing, without moral repercussions, it won't matter if we know what process of development leads to it.
I'd really like to find out what makes me gay (or bi). I'd be really interested in a scientific study into it. However, like ethnicity, I don't think you can find a "cure" for it. How daft is that?
Scientists have stopped moths from breeding (they were doing somthing bad I forget what) by turning them all gay. I thought that was fairly cool.
Question: You are given a pill that could turn you straight. You'd be exactly the same apart from your orientation.... What do you do?
(Personally I don't think I'd take the pill but I would keep it in my pocket. I don't know why but I don't feel I'd be able to throw it away)
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In answer to your question Caz. I honestly think my life would have been so much simpler if i hadn't turned out this way but taking a pill now? Definitely, when i was younger because of all the trouble i had at school and with my family but i think it's made me a stronger person and i've met some great people through being in the LGBT community, that i probs wouldn't have known if i was straight.
I think like you i'd keep the pill but i would take it if i saw my life descending into that same chaos again.
Ah yes, the pill question. Now, queer is one thing, but if I might divert slightly... nobody's entirely sure what causes transsexuality, but the most likely explanation so far is that it's something to do with part of the brain developing a little oddly. If we could work out exactly which part of the brain it is, theoretically, there could be a surgical or chemical 'cure' for it, which'd make your mental gender line up with your physical sex. Now, unlike homosexuality, in many cases, leading a comfortable life as a transsexual requires a lot of expensive and uncomfortable treatment, and a higher chance of social disapproval (at the current time). But would I have my brain 'fixed' to make me a girl? ...No ****ing way. 'Cause my gender forms a massive part of my identity, and me as a girl wouldn't be me, it'd be, well, some woman. I'd rather be a makeshift man than an ordinary woman, really I would. But perhaps that's just my disorder speaking. (Yeah, I analyse my situation a lot. Far too much.)
As for homosexuality, **** no to that as well. Heterosexuality isn't naturally 'better' than homosexuality, they're equivalent things. The only downside to being gay is the social repercussions. There's nothing inherently unpleasant about being queer itself.
what ive always wondered was that if it was a genetic thing wouldnt the gene have died out?
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my fear is this. we look and look but dont find a gene that makes us LGBT then the religionuts say see see told you the devil made them that way stone them stone them now. meanwhile nazis say see told ya its coz like their all like freaks init
or we find a gene and this happens religionuts say see devild screwed them up stone them stone them noooooww and nazis say see their genetic freaks lets cure them and by cure they mean put on cargo trains and send to camps and i dont mean butlins
what ive always wondered was that if it was a genetic thing wouldnt the gene have died out?
yeah its an interesting question, cos you'd think a gene like that is only going to cause its own destruction!
there have been theories put forward that the lack of reproduction that a 'gay gene' would cause is compensated for by other means of passing genes on, e.g. by helping siblings/family to reproduce (who obviously share some of same genes)...but studies refuted this idea i think.
however there are some more likely theories arising from the odd bits and bobs of research...e.g. that sisters of gay men are more fertile. with genetics its never as simple as 'a gene for' this or that, genes are more like ingredients than a blueprint so a gene that predisposes people to certain sexual behaviours/feelings is not a logical impossibility...we'll have to wait for more research, but it does seem odd that throughout human and non-human history and accross the world, small LGB populations persist...
Ah yes, the pill question. Now, queer is one thing, but if I might divert slightly... nobody's entirely sure what causes transsexuality, but the most likely explanation so far is that it's something to do with part of the brain developing a little oddly. If we could work out exactly which part of the brain it is, theoretically, there could be a surgical or chemical 'cure' for it, which'd make your mental gender line up with your physical sex. Now, unlike homosexuality, in many cases, leading a comfortable life as a transsexual requires a lot of expensive and uncomfortable treatment, and a higher chance of social disapproval (at the current time). But would I have my brain 'fixed' to make me a girl? ...No ****ing way. 'Cause my gender forms a massive part of my identity, and me as a girl wouldn't be me, it'd be, well, some woman. I'd rather be a makeshift man than an ordinary woman, really I would. But perhaps that's just my disorder speaking. (Yeah, I analyse my situation a lot. Far too much.)
As for homosexuality, **** no to that as well. Heterosexuality isn't naturally 'better' than homosexuality, they're equivalent things. The only downside to being gay is the social repercussions. There's nothing inherently unpleasant about being queer itself.
Aww darling, you're not a make shift man. same as nic isn't either. you're both fabby. Plus noone is 100% male or female (Apart from jenny lee of course)... you know... yin and yang an all that. I definately wouldn't take a pill to change my gender but that's really easy for me to say. There have been studies (and yes you too can participate... when dead) where a T persons brain has been dissected and a stupidly high number of cases show that they actually had the same type brain structure of the gender they said they were. (Very few weren't) But how awesome is that? Science is totally on your side dude.
Although, I personally think it's a nicer way to think that your soul is male but your body female (I believe in reincarnation... don't ask) so you can't cure a soul.... apart from with soul food and music of course
:op
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